BBC document on Covid (Health Service) and Racism

[The Running Man]

I agree with you on this. I watched the programme with what I would like to think is a more open mind than some on here but I think it didn't really answer the question.

What it demonstrated with data is that

• if you are poor and lived in an urban environment then you were more likely to die from Covid. Agree with that.
• People of colour are more likely to be poor ergo the death rates are higher. Agree with that.
• Also People of colour are more likely to do NHS and other front line jobs, ergo again the death rates are higher. Agree with that

However what I think it should have looked at is whether white people of the same income and geographic demographics reflected the same higher rates of Covid and deaths. This is your control group if you like. If the rates are the same then you show that it is not people of colour in of themselves who are reflecting higher rates of Covid. Rather it is a society that puts people of colour into harms way through suppressing incomes and therefore access to healthcare/better health outcomes.

If the control group shows a differing levels of Covid/Deaths then you have a different discussion. Is it then something within those communities or the way in which the health service is treating them.

But why is that racist?

If someone cones to the UK with less relevant experience/skills then they are likely to be on lower wage jobs.

Its not just the same for black people or Asian but for all people.

For example people coming from Poland with basically doctor level qualifications doing more menial jobs here.

But ultimately if all they are saying is more white people should be on the front line, then won't it put them at risk? Or does that not matter?

Surely the ask should be for more ppe and front line vacs... which correct me if I am wrong are not being offered discriminate ways but to all those in these roles based on the role,not their race/ethnicity.

 

[Royal Fleet]

But why is that racist?

If someone cones to the UK with less relevant experience/skills then they are likely to be on lower wage jobs.

Its not just the same for black people or Asian but for all people.

For example people coming from Poland with basically doctor level qualifications doing more menial jobs here.

But ultimately if all they are saying is more white people should be on the front line, then won't it put them at risk? Or does that not matter?

Surely the ask should be for more ppe and front line vacs... which correct me if I am wrong are not being offered discriminate ways but to all those in these roles based on the role,not their race/ethnicity.

Did I miss a post in between mine and yours? You seem to have jumped a bit from the point I was making.

Also you seem to be asserting that the people of colour in this country are lesser skilled immigrants. I struggle to see that as anything other than racist.

 

[The Running Man]

Did I miss a post in between mine and yours? You seem to have jumped a bit from the point I was making.

Also you seem to be asserting that the people of colour in this country are lesser skilled immigrants. I struggle to see that as anything other than racist.

Well if you find the uk population by ethnicity from say 1950 to now it will be very different so I'm assuming that migration was one cause.

It also follows that certain groups, despite equal opportunity of education etc under perform meaning they have lesser qualifications than those who do perform, and therefore are more likely to have different job profiles too.

Thats not racist per se', it's just how some families may prioritise education, future job prospects.

If the uk was institutionally racist you would expect ALL minority groups to score low on education. But this isn't true.

If you were to review the attainment of Chinese/far Eastern Asian groups compared to other minority groups you will see a disparity.

This indicates that the root cause isn't as simple as 'racism' but perhaps there are other 'cultural impactors here.

 

[Royal Fleet]

If the uk was institutionally racist you would expect ALL minority groups to score low on education. But this isn't true.

If you were to review the attainment of Chinese/far Eastern Asian groups compared to other minority groups you will see a disparity.

This indicates that the root cause isn't as simple as 'racism' but perhaps there are other 'cultural impactors here.

You are right that Chinese origin does indeed have high school attainment. See the graph below. However if the UK wasn't institutionally racist you would then expect to see them and other ethnicities out perform White people in the jobs market. However the second graph would seem to show that this is not the case. I would suggest that if you want to assert that in this country people of talent get employed whatever their background you might want to find something that backs that up. All of these figures are ONS.

 

[The Running Man]

You are right that Chinese origin does indeed have high school attainment. See the graph below. However if the UK wasn't institutionally racist you would then expect to see them and other ethnicities out perform White people in the jobs market. However the second graph would seem to show that this is not the case. I would suggest that if you want to assert that in this country people of talent get employed whatever their background you might want to find something that backs that up. All of these figures are ONS.

You would need to consider the unemployment rate in this case, which for Chinese is similar, sometimes better or sometimes worse than white British but certainly not dissimilar with enough margin to say with any certainty that there is any racism here.

Also worth noting the lack of racism stopping school attainment for some groups which implies that the education system is not inherently racist either.

Your data ignores that many 16 yo+ will enter higher education within some groups.

Unemployment rates,

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123370/unemployment-rate-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

 

[200sols]

However if the UK wasn't institutionally racist you would then expect to see them and other ethnicities out perform White people in the jobs market

Them and other ethnicities do outperform white people in the jobs market. From your comment it seems you would only deem the UK 'not racist' if white British was at the bottom of everything..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48919813

 

[The Running Man]

Them and other ethnicities do outperform white people in the jobs market. From your comment it seems you would only deem the UK 'not racist' if white British was at the bottom of everything..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48919813

How dare you...

Shoot down racist accusations.

 

[XeNoN89]

More BBC race baiting nonsense

 

[Royal Fleet]

From your comment it seems you would only deem the UK 'not racist' if white British was at the bottom of everything..

Not at all. For any country to be considered completely colour blind you would expect to see there being no difference in the figures at all given the sample size.

Back to the topic of this thread. I made the point before someone took us off topic that it would have been interesting to see the Covid stats for a white sample of similar income and geography. Then you could see whether there is actually any difference due to physiological or cultural differences or if the issue is purely economic.

 

[The Running Man]

Not at all. For any country to be considered completely colour blind you would expect to see there being no difference in the figures at all given the sample size.

Back to the topic of this thread. I made the point before someone took us off topic that it would have been interesting to see the Covid stats for a white sample of similar income and geography. Then you could see whether there is actually any difference due to physiological or cultural differences or if the issue is purely economic.

Unless of course the cultures of those diverse groups accounted for the discrepancies rather than the eyes of the onlookers?

 

[Royal Fleet]

Unless of course the cultures of those diverse groups accounted for the discrepancies rather than the eyes of the onlookers?

You do get the point that the very definition of racism is to assume certain behaviours or characteristics based on a persons skin colour. Your comment 'cultures of those diverse groups' would seem to demonstrate a belief that if someone belongs to a certain ethnic group then they must have all of the characteristics of that group. Perhaps you would like to spell out some of these 'cultures'?

 

[The Running Man]

You do get the point that the very definition of racism is to assume certain behaviours or characteristics based on a persons skin colour. Your comment 'cultures of those diverse groups' would seem to demonstrate a belief that if someone belongs to a certain ethnic group then they must have all of the characteristics of that group. Perhaps you would like to spell out some of these 'cultures'?

I didnt assume anything based upon skin colour but if you are telling me that Chinese people have the same culture as gypsy travellers for instance then you are brainwashed by someone.

 

[Nasher]

Given there has been a drive to try and increase vaccination within BAME groups doesn't that tell us that its possible that BAME groups (generally speaking) haven't taken Covid as seriously as they perhaps should have? Combine that with multiple generation households, increased levels of obesity and health generally, lower income, likelihood of living in cities etc. It all plays a part.

But no just racism apparently.

Well they were out rioting in the middle of it.

 

[Royal Fleet]

I didnt assume anything based upon skin colour but if you are telling me that Chinese people have the same culture as gypsy travellers for instance then you are brainwashed by someone.

If you assume an individual of Chinese ethnicity is good at school and someone from a Gypsy ethnicity is bad just by their colour then that is racism. The whole definition of racism is to assume a wider behavioural trait based on their belonging to a particular ethnic group.

Whether the stereotypes have any basis in fact is actually immaterial. It is the assumption that an individual has the characteristics of the group that is Racism.

The point I have been trying to make is that they should have looked at a white group of the same geography and income. If the result was the same then it is not colour in itself that was the problem but rather that poor/urban populations are at risk. However is the result was not the same it would prompt more interesting questions about physiology.

 

[The Running Man]

If you assume an individual of Chinese ethnicity is good at school and someone from a Gypsy ethnicity is bad just by their colour then that is racism. The whole definition of racism is to assume a wider behavioural trait based on their belonging to a particular ethnic group.

Whether the stereotypes have any basis in fact is actually immaterial. It is the assumption that an individual has the characteristics of the group that is Racism.

The point I have been trying to make is that they should have looked at a white group of the same geography and income. If the result was the same then it is not colour in itself that was the problem but rather that poor/urban populations are at risk. However is the result was not the same it would prompt more interesting questions about physiology.

We are talking about statically averages. As per the info you shared.

That Chinese people for example earn more isn't a stereotype, it's a fact, on average.

That on average they may perform better in education isnt a claim it is also a fact.

 

[Angilion]

If you assume an individual of Chinese ethnicity is good at school and someone from a Gypsy ethnicity is bad just by their colour then that is racism. [..]

i) Only if you make no distinction between race, ethnicity and culture (which would be wrong).
ii) The Running Man was very explicitly not making any assumptions about any individuals. They were referring to statistics for entire groups.

The most obvious thing wrong with the initial claim was (as The Running Man pointed out) that it completely ignored the fact that people who have higher qualifications at 16 are more likely to continue in education at a higher level and thus less likely to leave school at 16 to get a job.

 

[Royal Fleet]

i) Only if you make no distinction between race, ethnicity and culture (which would be wrong).

This is Racism. The very definition thereof. You are assuming that someone of a certain ethnicity automatically has the characteristics of that group. Even if 99% of Chinese people were above average in maths to assume the one in front of you was is Racism.

Why cannot we not discuss the topic at hand?

Is there anything within Covid which affects certain ethnicities more than others? The point I keep making but is ignored is that the programme failed to run a control group to distinguish between socio economic factors and physiological factors. If they had done this and seen no difference between ethnic and control group then it is the socio economic factors only. If there is a difference then maybe the result is physiological. The latter may help us to understand Covid better.

if it is Socio economic then the discussion becomes why are ethnic minorities more likely to be in the socio economic group?

Without the control group element though the discussion becomes moot. My point about the program.

 

[potatolord]

...
Why cannot we not discuss the topic at hand?
...
if it is Socio economic then the discussion becomes why are ethnic minorities more likely to be in the socio economic group?

Without the control group element though the discussion becomes moot. My point about the program.

Widening the study to include examination of why some groups of people are over-represented in certain socio-economic groups would be scope creep on a grand scale.

I'm not saying it's not worthwhile testing that- just it's outside the scope of examining health outcomes related to covid.

 

[Tony Edwards]

You are right that Chinese origin does indeed have high school attainment. See the graph below. However if the UK wasn't institutionally racist you would then expect to see them and other ethnicities out perform White people in the jobs market. However the second graph would seem to show that this is not the case. I would suggest that if you want to assert that in this country people of talent get employed whatever their background you might want to find something that backs that up. All of these figures are ONS.

I assume thats of those that take the exams. It would be helpful to see the % of those that actually bother to take exams as well. Or at least maths.

 

[Bazzards]

I think some people need to understand the definition of Racism.

racism

noun

1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
   "a programme to combat racism"

How would assuming someone of Chinese ancestry is good at school, prejudice, discrimination or antagonism??