BBC document on Covid (Health Service) and Racism

[Royal Fleet]

Widening the study to include examination of why some groups of people are over-represented in certain socio-economic groups would be scope creep on a grand scale.

I'm not saying it's not worthwhile testing that- just it's outside the scope of examining health outcomes related to covid.

I agree with you on the scope creep but you cannot start the discussion until you have ruled out physiological differences. Hence the control group. I would be surprised if it is physiological but it needs ruling out.

 

[Royal Fleet]

I think some people need to understand the definition of Racism.

racism

noun

1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
   "a programme to combat racism"

How would assuming someone of Chinese ancestry is good at school, prejudice, discrimination or antagonism??

I assume that is aimed at me. I was using the possibly positive example to avoid articulating the undertones as to why black and south Asians ethnicities are more likely to be in the socio economic group that seems to get Covid more.

I am sure though if you asked a Chinese person if the automatic assumption they were good at school was antagonistic they would say it is.

 

[Caracus2k]

Muh structural racism!!!

There's a disparity so it must be racism fallacy yet again....

Let's not let careful consideration of facts interfere with a narrative

• Black adults were the most likely out of all ethnic groups to be overweight or obese

Covid deaths high in countries with more overweight people, says report

Divisive nonsense of the sought that shows why removing the BBC's ability to compel people, under threat of criminal penalty, to pay to watch any live TV must be pursued vigorously.

NHS doctors are unlikely to be suffering from health inequalities vs the rest of the population of the same age.

This article from the BMJ confirms most doctors who have died from COVID19 have been older Asian males.

Kinda puts a bit of a spanner in the narrative of economic equality given the older doctors on the BMJ list are unlikely to have been on anything like low pay vs the UK average.

Is out response to COVID sexist aswell? Or are some groups just more susceptible to some diseases for reasons other than systemic oppression?

 

[Royal Fleet]

Badly drawn Venn diagram time. My point is this. The programme showed that overall a non white Ethnicity showed a greater than average chance of Covid. (Z in the diagram). They also said the proportion of X in the diagram that was non white compared to the wider population is greater. The conclusion the programme therefore drew was that this is why more non white ethnicity were more likely to get Covid. My assertion is that you cannot draw that conclusion without using Y as a control group. If you look at Y and the covid rate in Y is the same as X then it is not ethnicity but fat and poor people who are at risk. However if the rate in X is greater than Y then it must be physiological or some other factor at play. That other factor could be racism or some other behaviour more common in non white ethnicity people. The reason why X has proportionally more non-white ethnicity people in it is a whole other discussion.

 

[Caracus2k]

You are right that Chinese origin does indeed have high school attainment. See the graph below. However if the UK wasn't institutionally racist you would then expect to see them and other ethnicities out perform White people in the jobs market. However the second graph would seem to show that this is not the case. I would suggest that if you want to assert that in this country people of talent get employed whatever their background you might want to find something that backs that up. All of these figures are ONS.

A question that often arises is... 'are peope that so badly misrepresent statistics' ignorant or just being disingenuous?

Because even from the ONS source you appear to have citied from, but not provided a link to, you would see some issues with your 'hypothesis'....

So in addition to the issues over things like further education already mentioned we have issues like:

Cultural differences meaning more Chinese women stay at home vs White British

Inactivity Rates by Ethnic group and sex

Chinese

Women 38.5
Women looking after family or home 10.9
Men 31.4

White British

Women 24.4
Women looking after family or home 7.3
Men 16.7

And the fact that the Chinese who are in work earn the highest average median wage in the UK!

Figure 4: Employees in the Chinese ethnic group had the highest median hourly pay of any ethnic group in 2018

Median Gross horly earning (including overtime) for all employees aged 16 and over, Great Britan 2012 to 2018

Chinese 15.75

White British 12.03

Source: Ethnicity pay gaps in Great Britain - Office for National Statistics (ons.gov.uk)

Let's also ignore that Chinese people, in the UK, are much younger on average than White British people and that age has a big effect on employment rates....

47.2% of Chinese people were aged 18 to 34 years old compared with 20.3% of White British people. This was the highest percentage out of all ethnic groups for these combined age groups.

25.2% of Chinese people were 18 to 24 years old – the highest percentage of Chinese people out of all age groups. The second highest percentage was in the 25 to 29 age group (12.2%). The younger age profile of the Chinese group could reflect the high proportion of students aged 16 and over within the Chinese population and this group migrating to the UK

Chinese ethnic group - GOV.UK Ethnicity facts and figures (ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk)

 

[Royal Fleet]

A question that often arises is... 'are peope that so badly misrepresent statistics' ignorant or just being disingenuous?

We all bring the stats to the party which aid our position. Let's not get on our high horse too much. In the ONS figures only Chinese are above White British and they represent less than 1% of the population. All the others are below White British. Also this ONS report shows that with the exception of one group White British have the highest household wealth. I am sure there are provisos in here too.

As I have said ad nauseam though. This thread was never supposed to be about racism per se and I apologise if I played a part in derailing it.

 

[potatolord]

I agree with you on the scope creep but you cannot start the discussion until you have ruled out physiological differences. Hence the control group. I would be surprised if it is physiological but it needs ruling out.

I don't disagree with any of that. Socio-economic background is likely an important factor, as it always tends to be...

 

[Caracus2k]

We all bring the stats to the party which aid our position.

You just got caught out with yours through didn't you...

Let's not get on our high horse too much.

Well you would say that now your narrative has collapsed wouldn't you?

In the ONS figures only Chinese are above White British and they represent less than 1% of the population. All the others are below

Are you talking about the median pay? And if so did you completely miss the pay for Indians?
(13.47)

Also this ONS report shows that with the exception of one group White British have the highest household wealth. I am sure there are provisos in here too.

Yes and the average white British household is far older, on average, than the other ethnicities. Older people of all races have a tendency to be richer.

 

[Royal Fleet]

Are you talking about the median pay? And if so did you completely miss the pay for Indians?
(13.47)

Yes and the average white British household is far older, on average, than the other ethnicities. Older people of all races have a tendency to be richer.

I did miss it. The Indian blue looked like the white blue (if that makes sense).

So what is your point here then as you have the moral high ground. If it is not socio economic why do the stats show a disparity amongst ethnic minorities compared to the population at large?

 

[Caracus2k]

I did miss it. The Indian blue looked like the white blue (if that makes sense).

So what is your point here then as you have the moral high ground. If it is not socio economic why do the stats show a disparity amongst ethnic minorities compared to the population at large?

There's likely a large number of factors including, but not necessarily limited to, rates of obesity, inherent susceptibility to different diseases varying across different population groups, percentage of multi generational households, population densities of areas lived in and cultural differences in compliance with preventative measures.

 

[The Running Man]

I did miss it. The Indian blue looked like the white blue (if that makes sense).

So what is your point here then as you have the moral high ground. If it is not socio economic why do the stats show a disparity amongst ethnic minorities compared to the population at large?

Culture?

 

[Royal Fleet]

There's likely a large number of factors including, but not necessarily limited to, rates of obesity, inherent susceptibility to different diseases varying across different population groups, percentage of multi generational households, population densities of areas lived in and cultural differences in compliance with preventative measures.

See my post above about control groups. Some of those factors are socio economic.
Obesity and Density are socio economic in my opinion. So they should have looked at a control group in this way (i.e. whites in the same type of areas and incomes)
Some of them are a different socio economic (Multi generational, cultural differences) so a different control group should be looked at (Non white richer people in more real areas)

If your control groups showed that Ethnicity was still a factor then it becomes physiological.

Whatever approach you start to narrow down your root cause. Which is what the programme failed to do.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

I did miss it. The Indian blue looked like the white blue (if that makes sense).

So what is your point here then as you have the moral high ground. If it is not socio economic why do the stats show a disparity amongst ethnic minorities compared to the population at large?

Culture, breakdown or complete lack of nuclear family, work ethic?

 

[Angilion]

This is Racism. The very definition thereof. You are assuming that someone of a certain ethnicity automatically has the characteristics of that group. Even if 99% of Chinese people were above average in maths to assume the one in front of you was is Racism.

Why cannot we not discuss the topic at hand? [..]

Maybe because you keep making stuff up to falsely accuse people of racism. Neither I nor The Running Man is doing what you claim. Probably nobody else here is doing it either.

 

[Royal Fleet]

Maybe because you keep making stuff up to falsely accuse people of racism. Neither I nor The Running Man is doing what you claim. Probably nobody else here is doing it either.

So what is racism then if not to assume a person has certain behaviour or characteristics based on their ethnicity. I disagree that any sweeping assumption based on colour is anything other than antagonistic at best. I accept that certain ethnicities may have prevalent norms but one should not assume that is the case for all.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

BBC, thats enough to make me change channels these days. The endlessly pushed woke agenda is beyond tedious.

 

[The Running Man]

Culture, breakdown or complete lack of nuclear family, work ethic?

Cultural family trends.

 

[arknor]

Did they question if large illegal gatherings for the BLM demos impacted the overall infection rate?

don't be so ridiculous, and don't you dare mention the religious gatherings!

didn't the jewish people have problems with covid as well and they aren't black.

I think maybe some cultures are more family orientated, more like to gather and super spread amongst themselves.

but if someone can spin it as a racist or anti woke virus why not

 

[silvagti]

BBC, thats enough to make me change channels these days. The endlessly pushed woke agenda is beyond tedious.

Likewise, I find myself increasingly feeling disgusted by the division and virtue signalling pursued by our state funded channel. I'm actually wondering if the people in charge are actively trying to run it into the ground!

I'm sure there are a hundred reasons why BAME groups are more susceptible to covid (social, economic, cultural, etc) but I'd be very surprised if the colour of your skin made any substantial difference to your chances of dying from coronavirus.

But no, clearly racism is the reason.....

The sooner the government make the TV licence an optional subscription the better IMO. It's about time the Bbc was actually held directly accountable by it's viewers rather then living in their own woke bubble.

 

[Angilion]

So what is racism then if not to assume a person has certain behaviour or characteristics based on their ethnicity. I disagree that any sweeping assumption based on colour is anything other than antagonistic at best. I accept that certain ethnicities may have prevalent norms but one should not assume that is the case for all.

Why are you falsely claiming people are doing things they are not doing?