Beginning of the end for Tesla & Musk ?

Soldato
Joined
17 Apr 2009
Posts
7,591
Citing electric cars from the 1830s is like saying Intel merely carried on from the the abacus. Musk has dragged the industry kicking and screaming- they were majorly stuck in the past. Maybe we could have had more viable electric options by now if the big players had got their act together earlier.

Has the industry come kicking and screaming? Do you really think the success is solely down to Tesla? The Roadster kick-started the new wave of EVs by demonstrating that demand existed, if the vehicles were good enough. But without the efforts of other players, there would be a fraction of the current number of EVs on the road.

If the industry as a whole had been as committed to EVs as Tesla then yes, we would be a lot further ahead. But the rest of the industry isn't relying on the success of EVs, even now. Taking excessive risks to drive change is the role of the start-up, not the established player. The industry as a whole has reacted exactly as it could be expected to.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2012
Posts
8,333
Well I'm not suggesting that you do, what I'm suggesting is improvements to online shopping.

and copying the german pfand system wouldn't hurt either, basically the same idea as the old glass milk bottles with a modern spin.

although god forbid we have to pay an extra 25p deposit on our milk that we claim back next time we're shopping.....
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,912
and copying the german pfand system wouldn't hurt either, basically the same idea as the old glass milk bottles with a modern spin.

although god forbid we have to pay an extra 25p deposit on our milk that we claim back next time we're shopping.....

I remember going trekking in Nepal years ago... even in a remote village with basic facilities you got money back if you returned the glass bottle your Coca Cola came in. The use of plastics is so regressive when glass can be simply washed and reused.
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2012
Posts
8,333
I remember going trekking in Nepal years ago... even in a remote village with basic facilities you got money back if you returned the glass bottle your Coca Cola came in. The use of plastics is so regressive when glass can be simply washed and reused.

it's not even plastics is the problem, it's the lack of re-use, the germans do plastic bottles of various soft drinks that are much thicker walled and tougher than the flimsy stuff we see here which allows them to be re-used as well.
 
Soldato
Joined
24 May 2009
Posts
20,154
Location
North East
Electric cars will really take off from April 2020.

Why? Company car benefit in kind.

It's high for the next few years but as of the 20/21 tax year it'll be a mere 2%!

So I could contract hire a Tesla Model S through work and pay just £150 a month in tax against a car worth 70k!

Look how fast diesel engine cars took off thanks to low BIK tax for company drivers....until the government decided diesel engines and nox was actually far worse than Co2 emissions.

Sensible post ignored, this is the truth.
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,912
it's not even plastics is the problem, it's the lack of re-use, the germans do plastic bottles of various soft drinks that are much thicker walled and tougher than the flimsy stuff we see here which allows them to be re-used as well.

Fair enough, yup that is the main point I was highlighting. That we used to reuse these things years ago and that that is surely more efficient, if it is as practical to perhaps reuse thicker plastic bottles (I presume after a few cycles they'll still need recycling) then I'll all for that too :)
 
Commissario
Joined
17 Oct 2002
Posts
33,025
Location
Panting like a fiend
I always wondered what happened to "Pedestrian controlled vehicles"

One of the limitations for RM dealing with internet shopping is that there is a limit to how much an on-foot postie can physically carry.

But back in the 60/70's Posties used these electrically propelled vehicles that were a bit like terry pratchets Luggage

You walked ahead of it, held on to its lead, and it followed you.

I would have thought that something like that would be ideal for the crossover between delivering letters on foot and actually also being able to deliver small to medium sized parcels at the same time.
The same sort of device is still used in industry I think, and these days RM do have a lot of posties with unpowered trolleys.

I suspect the use of the battery powered karts was probably stopped due to cost of them at the time vs vans, and the issues you have with things like being in control of it, reliability, stability and ability to cope with uneven ground.

Going back just 20 years (going by how scooter tech has advanced), they would have been using very bulky batteries, electronics that were probably not overly reliable and issues with brakes etc on slopes.

I wouldn't be surprised to see something like that come back again as a varient of the current model of trolly RM use but with better automatic safeties (one of the biggest improvements in mobility scooter safety was the electromagnetic brake, as the moment the power cuts out a heavy spring clamps the brake).
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2012
Posts
8,333
Fair enough, yup that is the main point I was highlighting. That we used to reuse these things years ago and that that is surely more efficient, if it is as practical to perhaps reuse thicker plastic bottles (I presume after a few cycles they'll still need recycling) then I'll all for that too :)

indeed, such a simple thing to implement too, the german system (other european countries are available) just makes so much sense when you've lived with it for a while, hell if you're too lazy to get the pfand back yourself just set it next to a bin and your friendly neighborhood hobo will come and clean it up for you.

otherwise just chuck the empties in a plastic bag, drop it off in the reverse vending machine at the shop, and give the reciept in to discount off whatever bottles your buying, it even acts as a handy reminder to re-use your shopping bags too.
 
Associate
Joined
24 Nov 2010
Posts
2,314
Shares are suspended. Clear case of market manipulation, whether he has anything to back it up or not. The company itself would have had to make an official filing expressing what he did, before he did. It didn't.

He should be prosecuted to the full extent that the law allows.

That aside, I'm sure taking it private would be his wet dream. They wouldn't have to worry about what Wall St thought, as they continued to lose money hand over fist, margins looked awful, and competition intensified. They could instead keep information to an absolute minimum (as being a private entity in the US would allow), and court evangelical investors.
 
Soldato
Joined
15 May 2007
Posts
12,804
Location
Ipswich / Bodham
An interesting view on his plans: https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/08/08/1533716268000/Tesla-going-private--We-have-questions---/

Even though we first (half-jokingly) proposed that the erratic Elon Musk's endgame was to take Tesla private exactly two months ago, we were as surprised as anyone to read the tweet, and subsequent staff email, describing a planned transaction at $420 a share.

We have many questions. for instance:

1. How does the debt of a buyout provide less pressure than the stock market?


There is quarterly reporting and an incentive for short sellers to trash talk the company on Twitter, but that surely pales in comparison to the pressure to maintain bank/ bond covenants and make interest payments.

2. If it isn’t debt, who can write that sort of equity cheque without debt somewhere involved?

“Funding secured” said Musk. There are a small number of sovereign wealth funds attached to non-democratic states, but still.

3. How do you finance $50bn(?) of new debt on a company with negative cash flow, big expansion plans and where analysts forecast a need for further equity raises?

4. How many banks would have to be involved in the syndicate for a bridge loan for a buyout like that, 30?

The largest previously was the when AB InBev borrowed $75bn, including $40bn of bridge loans from 21 relationship banks, to fund the takeover of SABMiller.

5. Did Musk discuss this with the board before tweeting? There would have to be a fairness opinion behind the $420 mooted take-out price, right?

6. How can public shareholders remain investors in a “private” company?

Musk said in his letter that shareholders “can stay investors in a private Tesla or they can be bought out at $420 per share, which is a 20 per cent premium over the stock price following our Q2 earnings call (which had already increased by 16 per cent)”. He also seemed to suggest a fund structure similar to that at his rocket company, SpaceX.

However, the problem is an SEC rule that a private company cannot have more than 500 shareholders of record. The Securities and Exchange Commission would surely look straight through the pretence of a private company structure, wouldn't it?

7. Did he meet the bankers on the production line, as that’s where he says he’s been sleeping lately?

8. It's consensus that Tesla needs to sink $5bn-6bn on a Model Y production line next year, and $18bn for a dealer/sales network plus $2bn to $8bn for a charging network, by next decade. It's consensus that Tesla burns through the remaining cash by next year. In what way is cutting off access to equity markets positive to that circumstance?

9. Forbes reported in May that Musk, at the end of 2017, had 13.8m of his Tesla shares, around $5bn worth at pixel, pledged as collateral for margin loans to help fund his extravagant lifestyle. What terms will banks demand for collateral in an illiquid private company, rather than publicly traded shares?

10. If it wasn’t for the existence of maniacs fellow visionaries with bottomless pots of cash ( SoftBank and MBS), this would be treated as the ravings of a lunatic, right?

Wait, is this about to be the world’s biggest ICO? It makes no sense with real money, but maybe a massive issue of Elons...
 
Soldato
Joined
25 Sep 2009
Posts
9,630
Location
Billericay, UK
I think going private is the best thing for Tesla, the company is borderline case of a corporate personality cult for Elon Musk and the way his thinks and plans isn't really suitable for investors who like to dissect quarterly reports and by taking it private it take decisions without having to worry about what the stock market will think.

9. Forbes reported in May that Musk, at the end of 2017, had 13.8m of his Tesla shares, around $5bn worth at pixel, pledged as collateral for margin loans to help fund his extravagant lifestyle. What terms will banks demand for collateral in an illiquid private company, rather than publicly traded shares?

10. If it wasn’t for the existence of maniacs fellow visionaries with bottomless pots of cash ( SoftBank and MBS), this would be treated as the ravings of a lunatic, right?

Taken from @The_Abyss post as it sums up the issues when dealing with traders nicely.
 
Soldato
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Posts
12,348
I don't understand his business logic there of announcing a $420 share buyout, he'd have done better to wait for the annual or quarterly results to have been published which obviously causes a tumble in the current stock price, and then could have proceeding to sweep them all up. Would have saved him billions.
 
Permabanned
Joined
28 Nov 2009
Posts
2,582
Location
İzmir
I don't understand his business logic there of announcing a $420 share buyout, he'd have done better to wait for the annual or quarterly results to have been published which obviously causes a tumble in the current stock price, and then could have proceeding to sweep them all up. Would have saved him billions.

But those results may have been so bad that it'd scare away more future investors and thus lose billions that way.
 
Soldato
Joined
9 Mar 2003
Posts
14,244
The stock also went up (a lot) after the last quarterly results so that argument is somewhat void.

It’s probably worth nothing that people thought musk was crazy for even starting Tesla, then even more crazy when he unveiled the ‘master plan’ etc., similar comments were levied at SpaceX in the early days. You still have people from Daimler saying the Tesla Semi specs are fake yet the thing exists and their record on announcement specs to the launch model speaks for itself.

But when it comes to things Musk says regarding Tesla and SpaceX have so far come true*. I think past experience tells me it’s very premature to pass judgement right now.

*just not nessiseraly on time....
 
Soldato
Joined
6 Sep 2005
Posts
5,996
Location
Essex
Shares are suspended. Clear case of market manipulation, whether he has anything to back it up or not. The company itself would have had to make an official filing expressing what he did, before he did. It didn't.

Musk's Twitter account is a designated source of official news from the company, so I'd guess that covers Musk making the announcement via Twitter.
 
Associate
Joined
24 Nov 2010
Posts
2,314
Musk's Twitter account is a designated source of official news from the company, so I'd guess that covers Musk making the announcement via Twitter.

Regarding "funding secured"? No. That would have had to be an official filing ... and the board have not backed that comment of his.
 
Back
Top Bottom