Belgian Grand Prix 2012, Spa-Francorchamps - Race 12/20

[Mr Men]

Did i i make the stats up then mr men ? did ferrari make them up ? Did Gary Anderson make them up ? Did Andrew Benson make them up ? Did Adam Cooper make them up ? Did the entire F1 paddock make them up ?

Mr Men and Arknor know best yes ?

I don't know how many he has been involved in, you say it's 7 so enlighten us with them?

 

[DecoySA]

i just have

 

[DecoySA]

I think Germany was the 7th actually, although can't remember the specifics

 

[Mr Men]

i just have

Australia was not lap 1 IIRC
Malaysia was more the fault of MS IMO
Monaco was not all his fault

 

[DecoySA]

no on had said they were all 100% his fault, they said he has been involved in the incidents which he has.

he was exactly like this in 2009 as well, he needs to calm down on the opening laps and this ban will probably end up being good for him because the guy has the talent and pace to be a top driver.

 

[arknor]

so what did the stewards punish him or decide he was to blame? were they considered racing incidents?
surely you cant come on here making claims hes been involved in 7 accidents without laying down the evidence and stewards reports (which are available in the f1 website after each race weekend)

being involved in previous accidents shouldnt be a determining factor or consideration for the stewards anyway.

only the current weekend should count which is why the stewards are different every race. your that weekends stewards not the seasons.

 

[DecoySA]

so what did the stewards punish him or decide he was to blame? were they considered racing incidents?

surely you cant come on here making claims hes been involved in 7 accidents without laying down the evidence and stewards reports (which are available in the f1 website after each race weekend)

If you are so interested, GO AND FIND THEM YOURSELF and post the results... you said you know where to find the results so go and find them duh !

Anyway what the stewards find in each specific incident does not undermine mine and many other peoples point seeing as no one has said "he has recieved penalties for 7 incidents out of 12 races". What i said was that he's been involved in lots of incidents in the opening laps (this is fact) and if you don't think this has had any influence on why he received the ban then there is no point talking to you.

 

[Mr Men]

What i said was that he's been involved in lots of incidents in the opening laps (this is fact) and if you don't think this has had any influence on why he received the ban then there is no point talking to you.

Well I guess if he has been given 7 penalties for the same thing then going to a race ban is the next option, but I don't think he has been punished for any of the previous incidents? So not sure how they should count towards this ban?

 

[DecoySA]

Well I guess if he has been given 7 penalties for the same thing then going to a race ban is the next option, but I don't think he has been punished for any of the previous incidents? So not sure how they should count towards this ban?

Id say one factor is because FIA are trying to tame rookie/new drivers. If you you ever watch GP2 or GP3 its clear how little respect a lot of the drivers have for each other due to the apparent modern day "safety" of open wheel cars. If they come from GP2 into F1 with this attitude there are going to be problems.

They are basically using him as an example, it's a bit harsh but its the correct thing to do, only thing that grates for me is that Maldonado has somehow got away without any kind of ban despite purposely hitting two opponents in the past season and a half.

If it makes Grosjean a more cautious driver in the opening laps (which it almost certainly will) then i think it will be good for him.

 

[sunama]

Alonso is the best driver at the moment, but don't forget this season that there have been loads of different winners so although he is out driving the car, it is being consistent that is getting him ahead in the WDC rather than winning every race for example.

And it takes a smart driver of high intelligence to work out the best strategy, to win the title, in 3rd best car.

This is the reason why I am rating Alonso so highly this season.

When was the last time that the 3rd best car of the season, won the title. In the last 20 years...probably never. And that includes MSc (who I rate as the all time greatest).

One thing we are seeing this year, though, is that the polemeister Vettel, doesn't appear to be the polemeister anymore. In fact, during qualifying he seems to be slow, compared with his race pace (which is as fast as it ever was). Vettel is concentrating completely on his race setup and is paying less attention to his qualifying setup?

Perhaps NUTS can comment on this?

For me, the 2 drivers of the day were Button and Vettel.
Button for his time trialling demonstration and the fact that he made it look easy. And Vettel, for relentlessly climbing through the field and overtaking people on track.

Alonso and Vettel remain the 2 favourites for the title, this year. If Vettel wins, he will be a triple World Champ, alongside the likes of Senna and Jackie Stewart with plenty of time, to score more World Titles.

 

[DecoySA]

When was the last time that the 3rd best car of the season, won the title. In the last 20 years...probably never. And that includes MSc (who I rate as the all time greatest).

i get the feeling you didn't read my previous responses to your "best car" generalisations (or maybe conveniently ignored them...) and why its completley pointless to compare what alonso is doing this season to what happened in the past 20 years...

so here you go...

I hate these kind of simplistic generalisations about "best cars". The fact is his cars performance has varied from track to rack and also under varying conditions. For example the Mclaren has supposedly been the best car on the grid this season but in truth it hasn't been the best car in numerous races. For example so far it has been extremely poor in wet conditions due to the drivers not being able to switch the tyres on whereas the Ferrari has been the best car on the grid in these conditions. On top of that you have to take into account the effect track temps etc played in the early part of the season, it was like a lottery in terms of which cars race pace would be best and thus having the best car was entirely dependant on numerous factors, many of which were out of the teams control hence why we had so many different winners and such a high level of unpredictability... The best car on the grid did not necessarily mean the best car in the race.

I rate Alonso highly and consider him the most complete driver on the grid (although not the fastest) but this whole "oh he's winning in the third best car" stance is just ridiculous and looks at the sport in an incredibly simple and basic manor.

and this was in response to you comparing alonso leading championship in "third best car" to senna not being able to win the championship in 92/93 with second best car

Again you're looking at things way to simply. No one i repeat NO ONE would have been able to beat the Williams of 92. That car was arguably the most dominant car in F1 history because of its active ride heigh suspension system. At certain points in the season they were lapping 2 seconds a lap quicker for the entire race than the next fastest cars (and that was when they were cruising...). If i remember correctly they lapped the entire field in one race (possibly Imola). Ricardo Patrese finished second in the championship that year ahead of Senna and he is the definition of an average driver !

Comparing Alonso beating supposedly better cars this season to Senna not being able to beat the Williams of 92 is laughable, the difference between the best car this season and the Ferrari is pretty much non existent compared to what it was like in 92. Its a bizarre and illogical comparison to make.

From the tyres to the EBD ban, the sport nowadays is setup in order to equalise the cars as much as possible, the performance difference is minor whereas back in the early 90s it was just a straight up no holds bar technology race.

 

[Mr Men]

Alonso is in the 3rd best car in general, even when he won in the wet the car was not the fastest.

 

[DecoySA]

Alonso is in the 3rd best car in general, even when he won in the wet the car was not the fastest.

it was the fastest car in those conditions, so yes it was the fastest car for those specific races.

this is my entire point these generalisations of "its not the fastest car in general" or "its the third fastest car" statements are completley pointless when the first half of the season has been unlike any f1 season in as long as i can remember.

you had maldonado win in a williams !!!! it wasn't just because he drove like an utter god that day, it was because his car suited those conditions and track temps (just like when rosberg won). The Mercedes and the Williams were the best car on those two occasions.

 

[MarcLister]

If it makes Grosjean a more cautious driver in the opening laps (which it almost certainly will) then i think it will be good for him.

I think it is pretty obvious what will happen to Grosjean by the end of the first lap in Singapore. Someone will crash INTO him and he'll be out of the race.

If Vettel wins, he will be a triple World Champ, alongside the likes of Senna and Jackie Stewart with plenty of time, to score more World Titles.

I'm sure you know this but if Alonso wins the title this year, he'll also be a triple world champ. I have no problems seeing Vettel win three titles back to back (a feat only managed by some bloke called Fangio and some bloke called Schumacher, to date!) but I'd be very happy to see Alonso become a triple champion.

 

[FrankJH]

Alonso has made his own luck in some respects and been lucky in others (upto yesterday) - as much as Button was unlucky not to win the 1st three races at any rate (one win, understeered into a back marker while significantly in the lead, one 2nd place despite a McLaren mistake in the pits).

Alsono is also lucky that JB/ McLaren couldnt get a hold on the tyre issues for 4- 5 races, (itx only really breakdowns /kers issues whivh have stopped his consistancy for the last 2 seasons prior to China)

Alonso has been the right driver in the right place at the right time (just when Red bull have been caught out slightly in quali, with a much tighter grid at most races), Maybe Alonso flatters the Ferrari slightly, but its NOWHERE as bad as Massa makes it look either (which of course makes Alonso look even better).

 

[Mr Men]

it was the fastest car in those conditions, so yes it was the fastest car for those specific races.

The Sauber was quicker only Perez making a mistake cost him breezing past Alonso to win the race. Win in Valencia again the Red Bull was way quicker, Germany he held up Button and Seb in quicker cars.

 

[Duke]

/waves to DecoySA, don't think you've posted in F1 threads before? If not, Welcome, if so, sorry I've not noticed before lol

 

[arknor]

im starting to think the ferrari is now the second fastest car in race conditions

 

[Mr Men]

im starting to think the ferrari is now the second fastest car in race conditions

McLaren seem to be best now, Red Bull and Ferrari are probably pretty close to each other currently.

 

[DecoySA]

fair play on the sauber point but it was still quicker than 22 other cars on the grid...

also alonso started on pole position in germany, surely if we are going to do this ridiculous generalisation thing then he had the fastest car on the grid as quali times seem to be the basis for most people saying the "mclaren is the fastest car on the grid".

As for Valencia he drove very well but again he came into a huge amount of luck and generally up until yesterday has had a lot of luck go his way this season (whilst also driving very well it has to be said)