Belgium Grand Prix 2010, Spa-Francorchamps Circuit - Race 13/19
- Thread starter Glaucus
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This is the main reason why I rate MS so highly. I remember when he moved to Ferrari, everybody thought he had gone mad and was moving purely for the money. It takes a brave man to move from an all conquering team, to a team which hasnt won any titles for over a decade.
Yet even at this stage, he is beating everybody else.
Webber was beating everyone at one stage. Alonso was beating everyone at one stage. It's irrelevant until the season is over, plus Webber's won more races..
Thats the risk though, if it became a success do you credit Schumy, Brawn or both?
Webber has the best car, by far. All he has to do is beat Vettel, who is performing poorly, by his own standards.
Hamilton is having to beat drivers, in better cars.
Indeed Alonso and Webber have won a few races. But at this point, Hamilton is leading the championship, therefore, at this point, he is beating everybody in the title race.
If Hamilton was in an RBR car, he would be spanking Webber.
championship would be over now
suprised there has been no mention or time punishment etc for massa starting about a meter past his start mark.
I'm so glad you're here to tell me what I think sunama....
Hamilton has come a long way from his title-winning year. I still rate Button highly, and wish he'd been given a championship-capable car earlier in his career (and hell, 2004 proved that he deserved one). But Hamilton is younger, it's fair to say that he's quicker over one lap in equal machinery, and his aggressive style means he can maintain speed with a car that is handling a tad drunkenly. On the other hand, Button is easier on the car, easier on the tyres and tactically rather more astute - astute enough that he will confer with the team before a decision is made, rather than wait for the team to come up with a plan on their own.
Is one better than the other? Well, Hamilton is leading Button by 35 points right now. So Hamilton is 35 points better.
Simples!
*squeak*
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Button did try to get into front running cars - though in hindsight he sometimes made the wrong calls.
Could he have kept a seat in the Williams for 2001? Doubtful. Race seat for Benneton was a better option than a reserve/test driver role.
Probably the right call.
Could he have done better at Benneton and stayed with the team when they began to emerge as a front runner - possibly - but Briatore wanted to push his own talent in Alonso so it's doubtful he could have stayed through their glory years of 2005 and 2006.
Jumping to BAR in 2003 after being cut from Benneton, he outperformed Villeneuve and started to improve his image after the Benneton years. 2004 was a real breakthrough year, and really marked him out as a potential world champion - if he was in a front running car.
Probably the right call.
In 2005 he wanted to jump to Williams who were still a front running team, after Dave Richards failed to pay out his contracted bonus - but the deal was overturned. 2005 saw BAR DQ'ed from several races and not show the same pace as the previous year.
Then in 2006, rather than going to Williams, he stayed with BAR who were becoming the Honda works team - and even had to buy himself out of the Williams contract (although his Honda contract was probably inflated to cover this). The 2006 Honda was really strong by the end of the year, and with one of the biggest budgets in F1 there was no reason not to believe the team would continue to fight at the front - so he signs a long term contract.
Right call for 2006, but 2007 + 2008
Late 2008 - signs a tidy multi year contract extention with Honda who had been working on the 2009 post rule change car the majority of the previous year under the stewardship of Ross Brawn.
2009 - Honda pulls out, and agrees a massive pay cut to race (he could have pulled a Raikkonen and sat out the year on Honda's dime) - and the Brawn GP is the car to beat for the opening races.
I'd say he made the right call
2010 - Jumps to the second/third best car in McLaren as the former Brawn GP team Mercedes struggles as a result of limited development funds the previous year.
Right call for this year. Longer term he has to overcome Hamilton in equal machinery which surely must reduce his chances of another WDC.
Could he have kept a seat in the Williams for 2001? Doubtful. Race seat for Benneton was a better option than a reserve/test driver role.
Probably the right call.
Could he have done better at Benneton and stayed with the team when they began to emerge as a front runner - possibly - but Briatore wanted to push his own talent in Alonso so it's doubtful he could have stayed through their glory years of 2005 and 2006.
Jumping to BAR in 2003 after being cut from Benneton, he outperformed Villeneuve and started to improve his image after the Benneton years. 2004 was a real breakthrough year, and really marked him out as a potential world champion - if he was in a front running car.
Probably the right call.
In 2005 he wanted to jump to Williams who were still a front running team, after Dave Richards failed to pay out his contracted bonus - but the deal was overturned. 2005 saw BAR DQ'ed from several races and not show the same pace as the previous year.
Then in 2006, rather than going to Williams, he stayed with BAR who were becoming the Honda works team - and even had to buy himself out of the Williams contract (although his Honda contract was probably inflated to cover this). The 2006 Honda was really strong by the end of the year, and with one of the biggest budgets in F1 there was no reason not to believe the team would continue to fight at the front - so he signs a long term contract.
Right call for 2006, but 2007 + 2008
Late 2008 - signs a tidy multi year contract extention with Honda who had been working on the 2009 post rule change car the majority of the previous year under the stewardship of Ross Brawn.
2009 - Honda pulls out, and agrees a massive pay cut to race (he could have pulled a Raikkonen and sat out the year on Honda's dime) - and the Brawn GP is the car to beat for the opening races.
I'd say he made the right call
2010 - Jumps to the second/third best car in McLaren as the former Brawn GP team Mercedes struggles as a result of limited development funds the previous year.
Right call for this year. Longer term he has to overcome Hamilton in equal machinery which surely must reduce his chances of another WDC.
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For 2009 and 2010, he made the correct decision.
During these years he was more single minded and had a more selfish attitude, which a top driver should have. In the days of Prost and Senna, this was the norm. (MS came a long and changed that blue print...but thats another story).
My gripe is that before he won the title, it felt like he was avoiding going head to head with the top drivers. By staying at the back of the grid, he could pick up a nice salary, without ever having his skills put under the magnifying glass. He knew that if he moved to front running team, every performance would be analysed.
In 2009, winning the title brought him the confidence needed to move to an established front running team. An extraordinarily bold move as there was a very real risk that that he would get demolished and humiliated at the hands of Hamilton (which luckily for him, hasnt happened).
Its all good now, though. All the main protagonists are in potentially good cars and it should bode well for next year. I want to see all the best drivers in good cars, all trying to win races and compete for the leading positions. Seeing Alonso last year in a poor Renault was a ridiculous waste of talent.
Next year, if Renault can give Kubica a good car, the championship should be even more competitive. Hopefully MS will leave Mercedes, who will then allow Rosberg to run as outright No.1, to maximise his performance level - this will add another championship contender to the mix.
Anyway, I digress...
During these years he was more single minded and had a more selfish attitude, which a top driver should have. In the days of Prost and Senna, this was the norm. (MS came a long and changed that blue print...but thats another story).
My gripe is that before he won the title, it felt like he was avoiding going head to head with the top drivers. By staying at the back of the grid, he could pick up a nice salary, without ever having his skills put under the magnifying glass. He knew that if he moved to front running team, every performance would be analysed.
In 2009, winning the title brought him the confidence needed to move to an established front running team. An extraordinarily bold move as there was a very real risk that that he would get demolished and humiliated at the hands of Hamilton (which luckily for him, hasnt happened).
Its all good now, though. All the main protagonists are in potentially good cars and it should bode well for next year. I want to see all the best drivers in good cars, all trying to win races and compete for the leading positions. Seeing Alonso last year in a poor Renault was a ridiculous waste of talent.
Next year, if Renault can give Kubica a good car, the championship should be even more competitive. Hopefully MS will leave Mercedes, who will then allow Rosberg to run as outright No.1, to maximise his performance level - this will add another championship contender to the mix.
Anyway, I digress...
Excellent!!! I shall ensure that I tell you what you are thinking more often
I don't quite see how you could do so any more often than you already are doing, but I look forward to seeing you surpass yourself.
sunama said:
Was there?
There was the possibility of him being beaten, no doubt. And if Vettel keeps up his current brainfade shenanigans, that'll become a reality especially now the gap is out to 35 points (i.e a win and a bit with nothing scored in reply). But 'humiliated', really? It's not as if he's a Heikki Kovalainen, who was slow even for a number 2 driver when he was at McLaren.
When you were making that very same statement back in Feb '09 it was one thing. To say it off the back of him taking the '09 title....pretty silly, IMO.
I don't agree, he will need to be in a better car than alonso to beat him. He's in a better car than alonso now clearly shown by how good his team mate is for the ferrari true pace. Yet Alonso until recently was still in with a shout and won a couple of races despite the car not being great.
He will not beat Alonso with a car disadvantage. The only way you win with an inferior car is when the driver in the better car makes a complete fist of it. Like Damon Hill in 95 and Vettel this year. Had Alonso been in that RB this year no amount of Hamilton talent would have stopped the title being over already.
No one is F1 drives around car issues like Alonso, he can make a car look deceptively good while his team mate has no idea where the pace is coming from.
You only have to look at hamilton last year when the season started and before the car was rebuilt, he was a little boy lost.
Hamilton will pound on Vettel for the rest of his career, of that I have no doubt but he won't beat Alonso in any car without an advantage. He did well against Alonso at mclaren but you only have to see ron dennis and his stiffy when Hamilton wins to see whose team it is.
Just the same had Hamilton joined Renault with Flav, hamilton would have gotten stiffed.
I hope ferrari build a better/more reliable car next year atleast on a par more regularly with the front runners. I don't believe they will be able to stop Alonso then.
Alonso is definitely a top line driver. He has more titles than any other driver currently in F1, bar MS, and is rated as the best by his peers. The problem is that Alonso is living off of past glories. Is it not a possibility that Alonso may not be as good as he was in 2005, 2006 and 2007?
Hamilton has learnt a lot in the last year or so. In particular he has learnt how to drive a slow car. Where at the beginning of last year you saw Hamilton over driving a car which simply wasnt capable of going as fast as the other cars. This year, when his car isnt as quick as another car, he is content to sit behind the faster car and drive to the limits of his own car.
Alonso is definitely outperforming his team-mates, by a big margin. We saw this last year, where I believe he outqualified his team-mate by the biggest margin, of any driver on the grid last year. This year, once again, he is demolishing Massa. The question mark remains over Massa's ability, after his return since the crash.
This year we have also seen Alonso make some very silly errors. Most notable was his crash in Monaco. Up to the point of the crash he was favourite to win that race. He then dominated the first day in Spa, then for some inexpicable reason, believed he had to use a full wet race set up to score good points. A driver who is overwhelmingly confident in his own ability surely wouldnt need to take such a risk.
He also had the false start earlier in the season, which forced him into taking a drive-through penalty, which once again reduced his points total.
The eratic manner in which Alonso is driving, is not characteristic of the best driver in F1.
If we now look at Hamilton - he has hardly made any mistakes this year and when he has, he has driven out of his skin to overcome the error. The best example of this was in Australia where he had a very poor qualifying and was outclassed by Button. On race day though, it was a completely different story where he was overtaking people left, right and centre.
After 2007, for me, Alonso was "the daddy" of F1, by a good margin. In 2010, I feel Hamilton has sufficiently demonstrated that he is a more complete driver than Alonso currently is and in the same machinery, with equal support, would out score Alonso.
Hamilton has learnt a lot in the last year or so. In particular he has learnt how to drive a slow car. Where at the beginning of last year you saw Hamilton over driving a car which simply wasnt capable of going as fast as the other cars. This year, when his car isnt as quick as another car, he is content to sit behind the faster car and drive to the limits of his own car.
Alonso is definitely outperforming his team-mates, by a big margin. We saw this last year, where I believe he outqualified his team-mate by the biggest margin, of any driver on the grid last year. This year, once again, he is demolishing Massa. The question mark remains over Massa's ability, after his return since the crash.
This year we have also seen Alonso make some very silly errors. Most notable was his crash in Monaco. Up to the point of the crash he was favourite to win that race. He then dominated the first day in Spa, then for some inexpicable reason, believed he had to use a full wet race set up to score good points. A driver who is overwhelmingly confident in his own ability surely wouldnt need to take such a risk.
He also had the false start earlier in the season, which forced him into taking a drive-through penalty, which once again reduced his points total.
The eratic manner in which Alonso is driving, is not characteristic of the best driver in F1.
If we now look at Hamilton - he has hardly made any mistakes this year and when he has, he has driven out of his skin to overcome the error. The best example of this was in Australia where he had a very poor qualifying and was outclassed by Button. On race day though, it was a completely different story where he was overtaking people left, right and centre.
After 2007, for me, Alonso was "the daddy" of F1, by a good margin. In 2010, I feel Hamilton has sufficiently demonstrated that he is a more complete driver than Alonso currently is and in the same machinery, with equal support, would out score Alonso.
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This is the inferior Ferrari that waltzed off into the lead of the German GP (by both drivers) leaving every car, including the Red Bulls, in their wake? The Fezza is not a bad car, quite possibly it isn't being driven to its full potential often enough.
As for Hamilton never beating Alonso unless he has a car advantage. Considering that in his rookie year, Lewis beat Alonso (a 2x WDC at that time) whilst driving the exact same car, its already happened.
So which of these scenarios do you think happened.
A. Alonso looked at the weather forecast and thought even though Ferrari are saying there is a 10% chance of rain I will run high downforce.
Or
B. Ferrari told Alonso they had looked at the weather and expect a 70%+ chance of a heavy sustained downpour, so he trusted the team with a heavy wet set up.
Personally I believe B and Ferrari covered the bases by having massa on a low DF set up, in the belief it would rain anyway.
Much the same as when Williams started JV and Frentzen on slicks at spa in 97 when the rest of the grid had wets/inters, the drivers are listening to the forecast from the experts and sources/weather spotters within the team.
Yes it was a mistake but I doubt Alonso was sold the idea as a gamble, he just trusted the ferrari weather report. He was in a postion on friday where he didn't need to take a weather gamble and I don't think he thought he was.
No he didn't he drew with Alonso, that gets overlooked often here. Again what do you think would happen had Hamilton joined Alonso and Flav at Renault. Even with 3 years experience he would still have got ****ed over.
Alonso is a ****, with Issues but just like when Ron signed JPM he did his upmost to unsettle them in favour of his golden boys. Hell look how he treated DC who outscored Hakkinen in 97 despite having to give him a win. He had a face like a smacked bottom when DC won. Then was jumping for joy when hakkinen won. Much like you saw with ron this week, do you think he will celebrate a JB win the same way? JB is lucky Ron isn't in charge anymore and Whitmarsh has a bit more of a softer spot for JB than Ron would ever have.
As for the ferrari it's been nothing like as consistent as the red bull of Mclaren this year. Its been good in flashes but nothing like as good in dirty air and not that reliable either.
What Hamilton did is match Alonso for points. He didnt, "beat" Alonso in the truest sense of the word.
Moreover, for the last third of the season, Alonso was at a serious disadvantage, where he wasnt on speaking terms with most of his team. Ron Denis wasn't speaking to him. This can play havoc with any employee's mind set. Imagine a scenario that you work in a sales office, which has targets. Poor performers get warned/sacked. Top performers get bonuses. Imagine if your manager was not on speaking terms. This will seriously hamper your work performance as you have no idea what the future holds for you. Furthermore, Alonso is paranoid at the best of times. It would've been very uncomfortable driving for a team which you totally believe is shafting you and favouring the other driver.
Had Hamilton not played those games in Hungary and had dutifully followed the pre-arranged qualifying order, Alonso would've ended up on pole (not been demoted) and would've scored the extra point he needed to win the title.
For me, Alonso's best year was in 2006 and 2007 merely cemented his reputation as the best in F1.
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Lets asume this is true.
Why was Alonso the only leading driver on the grid who was given the information that there is a VERY high likelihood of an extreme wet race? Why is it that only he had this extreme wet set up?
They had one on a heavy wet set up and one on a lower downforce wing.
Knowing what you do about Ferrari and how they view Alonso and Massa which driver do you think they took the gamble with?
Ferrari clearly got the weather wrong, they expected more rain and it didn't come. Simple as that. If they expected longer periods of dry weather I'm sure the wing settings would have been reversed.
It's not the first time and it won't be the last time that one team gets the weather so very very wrong compared to the rest of the grid. Especially at Spa, if you have ever been you will see the locals call the weather wrong all the time and the rain can come in from seemingly nowhere.