Blame on both sides

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DAIR said:
Sorry. I don't buy it. I've been black for 33 years now.

And don't believe I've ever come across this so called "Institutional Racism" you speak off. Now I'm not saying that racism doesnt exist (that would be stupid. As it exist all over the world. Its a part of life and will never be eradicated). What I will say is that I refuse to believe that it is as bad as many like to make it out to be.
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You may not have come across that and suggesting institutional racism doesn't mean all police officers are racist.

It was however far less than 33 years ago, in 1998 that the enquiry into the Met and it's handling of the Stephen Lawrence investigation concluded that it was institutionally racist and considering that case, I wouldn't call the outcome of Sir William Macpherson's investigation "Lazy".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence
 
Black skin is a biological indicator of racial heritage, generally of African origin. Granted in society we commonly refer to being black, but in reality it is more about heritage and self identification. Just like we may identify as white, but potentially more specifically as white British or Irish for example.
 
stewski said:
You may not have come across that and suggesting institutional racism doesn't mean all police officers are racist.

It was however far less than 33 years ago, in 1998 that the enquiry into the Met and it's handling of the Stephen Lawrence investigation concluded that it was institutionally racist and considering that case, I wouldn't call the outcome of Sir William Macpherson's investigation "Lazy".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence
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A different time. And to be fair I said "to simply cry racism" was lazy.

That is my issue. When people immediately cry racism. Without taking the time to look into situations with more detail.
 
Aa83 said:
Black skin is a biological indicator of racial heritage, generally of African origin. Granted in society we commonly refer to being black, but in reality it is more about heritage and self identification. Just like we may identify as white, but potentially more specifically as white British or Irish for example.
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The most genetically different populations on earth are African and Aboriginal Australians, are they both black skinned?
 
I stick by what I've said. Im most situations, to simply cry racism isn't right or helpful.

Where racism is "clearly" evident then fair enough. Call it out. Like I've said numerous times. My issue is with people immediately screaming racism.

Where is the up roar in response to black on black crime? No riots, protests.... Nothing. It's almost as if it's cool for us to kill and harm each other. But a white person had better not lay a hand on us. Or it'll kick off.

It's madness.
 
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DAIR said:
I stick by what I've said. Im most situations, to simply cry racism isn't right or helpful.
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You can take that view, I'm not sure Id totally disagree, especially as discrimination essentially based on pigmentation of skin, has nothing to do with 'races' in my opinion. Do you accept however that within the 33 you have never experienced the institutional 'racism' of the police, it is probable that Stephen Lawrence's family and plenty of others have?
 
stewski said:
You can take that view, I'm not sure Id totally disagree, especially as discrimination essentially based on pigmentation of skin, has nothing to do with 'races' in my opinion. Do you accept however that within the 33 you have never experienced the institutional 'racism' of the police, it is probable that Stephen Lawrence's family and plenty of others have?
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Lol I feel like I'm repeating myself.

I have not said or suggested that it (that level of racism) doesn't exist. I'm saying that it isn't as common as the media would lead you to believe.
 
DAIR said:
Lol I feel like I'm repeating myself.

I have not said or suggested that it (that level of racism) doesn't exist. I'm saying that it isn't as common as the media would lead you to believe.
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Lol, if you are repeating yourself, why don't you quote where what you said in the past reads like the above?
 
DAIR said:
Where is the up roar in response to black on black crime? No riots, protests.... Nothing. It's almost as if it's cool for us to kill and harm each other. But a white person had better not lay a hand on us. Or it'll kick off.

It's madness.
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It’s madness to hold the police to higher standards than criminals?
 
stewski said:
The most genetically different populations on earth are African and Aboriginal Australians, are they both black skinned?
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How is that relevant?

The social concept of 'race' isn't down to genetics per say - though I'm not sure we have much of an Aboriginal Australian population here anyway so rather an irrelevant choice. A Black Briton could well have a minor mix of White/Asian etc.. ancestry too or ancestry from different parts of the Caribbean/Africa... it isn't really relevant. It is still their blackness that plays a large part of their racial identity - much more so than your other rather more spurious examples of someone having straight hair or different coloured eyes.
 
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True... But no one cares about the details. They want things in black and white. Much simpler that way.
 
dowie said:
How is that relevant?

The social concept of 'race' isn't down to genetics per say - though I'm not sure we have much of an Aboriginal Australian population here anyway so rather an irrelevant choice. A Black Briton could well have a minor mix of White/Asian etc.. ancestry too or ancestry from different parts of the Caribbean/Africa... it isn't really relevant. It is still their blackness that plays a large part of their racial identity - much more so than your other rather more spurious examples of someone having straight hair or different coloured eyes.
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In what way are other (similarly irrelevant to supposed 'race' but never seriously tracked) phenotype's spurious, black isn't a race and populations of countries are more genetically diverse between individuals, than to other populations. You can talk about social concepts of race, people have social concepts of 'god', it doesn't mean there is evidence one exists, nor does some people believing black, brown or whatever is a race, make it one. Such thinking should be taken out of government/guidance as it is not based on reason and not even collectively agreed upon.

Yes idiots use skin colour (though no one is ever specific about how black black is) to suggest predictive value a lot, this can be in the form of discrimination, this can and apparently has been supported institutionally by the met police, to devastating effect on some families/victims.

In teaching/education, some idiots note the correlation between adherence to uniform/dress code and attainment/results. Dressing up lads in ties in a rough school, who's parents never read to them as children is not going to suddenly make the A* attainable, though muppet's have actually tried and genuinely believed that. Correlation <> Causation and averages can tell you something, but very little about specific individuals who aren't precisely in that average.
 
stewski said:
In what way are other (similarly irrelevant to supposed 'race' but never seriously tracked) phenotype's spurious, black isn't a race and populations of countries are more genetically diverse between individuals, than to other populations. You can talk about social concepts of race, people have social concepts of 'god', it doesn't mean there is evidence one exists, nor does some people believing black, brown or whatever is a race, make it one. Such thinking should be taken out of government/guidance as it is not based on reason and not even collectively agreed upon.
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In what way are straight hair or eye colour spurious? They don't add anything re: race - if you believe otherwise then please explain how?

Black is a 'race'. No such thinking shouldn't be taken out of government guidance, black people in the UK are often victims of racial discrimination which the government is quite right to try and monitor and crack down on. To claim race doesn't exist in this context because it is a social concept is naive at best, it is very real for people who have experienced racial discrimination. People with say hazel eyes or straight hair aren't discriminated against in a comparable manner.
 
dowie said:
In what way are straight hair or eye colour spurious? They don't add anything re: race - if you believe otherwise then please explain how?

Black is a 'race'. No such thinking shouldn't be taken out of government guidance, black people in the UK are victims of racial discrimination which the government is quite right to try and monitor and crack down on. People with say hazel eyes or straight hair aren't discriminated against in a comparable manner.
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It's a Circular argument though, there is no reasoned evidence that the colour of skin (which has literally no definitive limits/definition, how black is black etc) constitutes a meaningful metric for sub species in humans aka race.

To my knowledge you may as well discriminate against people with hazel eyes, people don't because ill informed idiots have assumed some genetic/kin 'closeness' with those of similar skin colour, but not gone in for eye colour (perhaps because eyes are harder to assess en masse than skin tone) so much.

Regardless of the belief of an idiot discriminating against a person, who has entirely undefined levels of dark or light skin, they are not discriminating on a race but on a easily visible trait, as far as I know the only successfully/accurately defined race is human.
 
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