Boeing 777 shot down

....surely they wouldn't be so stupid!

Why is it stupid? There's a significant body of thought that the way to deal with Vladimir Putin is to embarrass him, having an inquiry that finds the Russian state was behind this awful murder (if indeed that's what the inquiry finds) will be a tremendous embarrassment for them.

What's stupid is that we haven't had one until now. We have a suspect, who Russia refuses to extradite. I think the evidence should be heard in public and since no trial is possible then an inquiry will have to do. Presumable the last government thought that letting the matter drop would in some way appease Putin and make him more manageable in geo-political circles.
 
Why is it stupid? There's a significant body of thought that the way to deal with Vladimir Putin is to embarrass him, having an inquiry that finds the Russian state was behind this awful murder (if indeed that's what the inquiry finds) will be a tremendous embarrassment for them.

What's stupid is that we haven't had one until now. We have a suspect, who Russia refuses to extradite. I think the evidence should be heard in public and since no trial is possible then an inquiry will have to do. Presumable the last government thought that letting the matter drop would in some way appease Putin and make him more manageable in geo-political circles.

I don't doubt that, but just look at how they've twisted the MH17 disaster to look like plot for spies - no doubt they'll just twist the report into some 'Western plot' against Russia.
 
To be honest I am surprised the Russians haven't tried to blame Kiev for firing a captured Buk by remote lol, they will probably get there in the end once the US debunks their Su25 theory :P
 
To be honest I am surprised the Russians haven't tried to blame Kiev for firing a captured Buk by remote lol, they will probably get there in the end once the US debunks their Su25 theory :P

Well the fight recorders have been handed over, just have to wait and see exactly what was reported from the planes perspective before the incident! Should never have happened :(
 
Hopefully it shouldn't take too long to ship them to the US and pull the data off the tapes.

Why the hell would you send them to the US?! Recipe for a biased outcome and never knowing what's really on there. Malaysians and/or Dutch would be the best choice for a fair outcome imo.
 
I thought they'd go to Malaysia for the diagnostics?! Why would the US take them?

Why the hell would you send them to the US?! Recipe for a biased outcome and never knowing what's really on there. Malaysians and/or Dutch would be the best choice for a fair outcome imo.

I wasn't aware that Malaysia had the ability to decode Boeing CDR tapes? hence why they are almost always sent to the US, or France if the country they're coming from doesn't trust America.
 
They wouldn't let anyone near it for days.

Much of that was due to the international investigation team not being able to get there due to it being an active war zone. In fact the Ukraine made it worse by starting a campaign to take back the nearby towns, which is actually hampering the investigation now.

They were seen by independents to be removing items.

While there probably was some looting much of the complaint was the rebels were moving items around, especially large ones. That could be entirely consistent with searching the wreckage for bodies. It appears they were far more methodical than we first though, going as far as numbering the body bags (assuming there are corresponding numbers on the ground) and storing them in a refrigerated train carriage bear the site. That has now been moved into non rebel areas after agreement was reached and after being held up near Donetsk due to the Ukrainian offensive in the city.

The black boxes were collected and stored, before being handed over last night. Seems reasonable...

They are now escorting and directing investigators heavily.

It's a war zone, as mentioned previously think of the uproar if one of them was shot! Initial refusal for them tsearch the cash site could have been down to the leader at the site not being told by superiors, or just being obstinate. They aren't a fully organised force, as seen by the drunkenness, although that could be put down to the horrors they mush be seeing at the site (equally it could be due to guilt at shooting it down in the first place).

That to me reeks of suspicion.

While it's great to jump on the suspicious wagon there are also plenty of reasonable explanations that can be gleaned from the information we are provided, especially when we ignore the obvious political posturing by the west and Russia. The problems could equally be in part caused by the rebels exerting their control over the area as a political move... Obviously there could be some pressuring from Moscow with all this as welll.

An interesting read here

http://gu.com/p/4v5qt

The cleanup operation, which has been roundly criticised by the international community who fear pro-Russia rebels are contaminating the site to cover up signs of their involvement, was cautiously praised by Van Vliet, at least when it came to the collection of the bodies.

Given the hot weather, the size of the crash site and the military operations going on in the vicinity, the operation was "very difficult" and he was impressed with the efforts of local emergency workers and volunteers, who have spent three days sifting corpses and body parts from the crash site. He added though, that the area needed a "full, forensic sweep" by proper experts.

It's interesting the differences in the reporting of the facts by different papers, some obviously with political agendas. Others not so much.
 
Conscription at its finest :rolleyes:

Ukraine's parliament has approved a presidential decree to call up more military reserves and men under 50 to fight the rebels and defend the border against a concentration of Russian troops, Reuters reports. After the vote, the agency says, scuffles broke out between nationalist politicians and members of the party that was led by the former President, Viktor Yanukovych, who was overthrown in February.
 
Much of that was due to the international investigation team not being able to get there due to it being an active war zone. In fact the Ukraine made it worse by starting a campaign to take back the nearby towns, which is actually hampering the investigation now.



While there probably was some looting much of the complaint was the rebels were moving items around, especially large ones. That could be entirely consistent with searching the wreckage for bodies. It appears they were far more methodical than we first though, going as far as numbering the body bags (assuming there are corresponding numbers on the ground) and storing them in a refrigerated train carriage bear the site. That has now been moved into non rebel areas after agreement was reached and after being held up near Donetsk due to the Ukrainian offensive in the city.

The black boxes were collected and stored, before being handed over last night. Seems reasonable...



It's a war zone, as mentioned previously think of the uproar if one of them was shot! Initial refusal for them tsearch the cash site could have been down to the leader at the site not being told by superiors, or just being obstinate. They aren't a fully organised force, as seen by the drunkenness, although that could be put down to the horrors they mush be seeing at the site (equally it could be due to guilt at shooting it down in the first place).



While it's great to jump on the suspicious wagon there are also plenty of reasonable explanations that can be gleaned from the information we are provided, especially when we ignore the obvious political posturing by the west and Russia. The problems could equally be in part caused by the rebels exerting their control over the area as a political move... Obviously there could be some pressuring from Moscow with all this as welll.

That's great except it's not entirely accurate.
The investigative team got to the site and was prevented access by the rebels. Not they couldn't get there, they weren't allowed to get there. Two different things.

Why didn't the rebels just set up a perimeter around the main site and leave the recovery to the proper folks? Body recovery, fair enough but that still doesn't explain why they were seen taking items away. The black boxes could have been guarded where they lay or handed over straight away. They weren't exactly respectful towards the dead...so care for them doesn't seem to hold up.

Drunkenness amongst them had been noted several times in the past so the horrors thing really doesn't ring true with regards to that. The rebels were also openly hostile to some of the investigators.
 
Russia also conscripts. In fact, after Russia's invasion of Crimea it started drafting young, Crimean men into the Russian army :(

To be fair Ukraine only stopped last October, and it's not like Russia is signing people up for life and shipping them off to fight in Stalingrad. It's a one year service and doctors, teachers, university students and those with young children are all ineligible for draft (among others).
 
To be fair Ukraine only stopped last October, and it's not like Russia is signing people up for life and shipping them off to fight in Stalingrad. It's a one year service and doctors, teachers, university students and those with young children are all ineligible for draft (among others).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6356707.stm

I bet life as a Russian conscript isn't exactly fun though, unless they've made significant improvements over the last 5 years which I doubt.
 
That's great except it's not entirely accurate.
The investigative team got to the site and was prevented access by the rebels. Not they couldn't get there, they weren't allowed to get there. Two different things.

Why didn't the rebels just set up a perimeter around the main site and leave the recovery to the proper folks? Body recovery, fair enough but that still doesn't explain why they were seen taking items away. The black boxes could have been guarded where they lay or handed over straight away. They weren't exactly respectful towards the dead...so care for them doesn't seem to hold up.

Drunkenness amongst them had been noted several times in the past so the horrors thing really doesn't ring true with regards to that. The rebels were also openly hostile to some of the investigators.

You appear to be mixing up the investigation team with the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) team. The latter were the ones that arrived shortly after the crash and had trouble accessing the site. The investigation team have not yet arrived, they are having trouble accessing the area due to the fighting.

Either way the intial refusal is covered by the bit where I said:

It's a war zone, as mentioned previously think of the uproar if one of them was shot! Initial refusal for the search the cash site could have been down to the leader at the site not being told by superiors, or just being obstinate. They aren't a fully organised force, as seen by the drunkenness, although that could be put down to the horrors they mush be seeing at the site (equally it could be due to guilt at shooting it down in the first place).

Unfortunately the proper folks haven't yet arrived, it would and has taken negotiation on both sides, neither trusting the other to allow that to happen. The rebels (and mostly local emergency services it appears) were doing the best they could to recover the bodies.

Were they actually seen taking stuff away or moving things, the reports I've read said moving items and late plane parts. As for black boxes marking the locations and storing the boxes somewhere secure makes more sense than leaving them in the field surrounded by locals and armed men. Remember these are rebels, not highly trained and disciplined soldiers.

Out of interest, did you read the link I posted? The guardian have quite a few good articles on this , worth reading.
 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6356707.stm

I bet life as a Russian conscript isn't exactly fun though, unless they've made significant improvements over the last 5 years which I doubt.

Doubt away, they made widespread changes in 2008 to improve standards, including reducing the service length to one year and increasing the amount of permitted excuses to avoid conscription.


Remember these are rebels, not highly trained and disciplined soldiers.

LIES! They are all highly trained Russian special forces! the TV says so!
 
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