Boeing 777 shot down
- Thread starter Glaucus
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![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
Maybe you aren't aware of the massive conscription taking place in Ukraine, and the rag-tag nature of their "command and control" as reported by the very families of those conscripted to fight on behalf of Kiev, and by some soldiers themselves? There have been incidents where they have been shot at by their own planes due to lack of effective communication. Supplies and instructions are often in short supply, etc. So there is some rag-tag aspect to the Ukraine army as well.
The Russians have produced what they say are satellite images of three Ukrainian BUKs in the area. What they were doing there (if the images are undoctored) is for the Ukrainians to answer.
Kiev had been complaining of incursions by Russian fighter jets. That would be a logical explanation for the presence of BUKs in the area. Obviously they wouldn't knowingly fire at a plane travelling from west to east (unless it was a false flag). But the main suspicion is that a mistake was made (by either side), and that the missile system somehow interpreted a civilian plane as a military one. Once that happened, Kiev would have pulled out their own BUKs from the area immediately, whether or not the missile was fired by one of their systems.
Their presence there could all be down to an attempt to get those systems as far east as was safe, and catch one of these alleged Russian jet incursions in the act and down it, and present it as proof of direct Russian interference. But what do I know. I don't even know those satellite images are accurate. Just like we don't really know if the BUK with two missiles transported on that truck was actually a rebel one or Ukrainian one.
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If this was 289 Americans I doubt Obama would be just saying what he is now ! We all know Russia is to blame for this attack yet the world will do nothing and we all know it ! It's shocking that in this day and age a country can blow a plane out the sky and the world just looks on, France are still selling Russia an Aircraft battle ship !!! really WTF ........ This world is so messed up it baffles me ! The UN should get together & get tough with Russia ! Lets be honest will they use NUKES ? Don't be stupid , If they did that they know they would be wiped of the face of the earth by USA & Britain
Who is "we" in that sentence?
No, war is rival factions fighting it out, a western backed government that can't even secure it's own parliament, or protect a US ambassador where multiple factions control their own areas of the country and battle it out for prime assets, where parts of the country are so out of control factions can fill a tanker and send it on it's way, only being stopped by the western military. The uprising and instability of what could politely be called a failed state, but more precisely an ex country that is now basically multiple fiefdoms also helped destabilise much of west and central Africa, including Mali, CAF and Chad, alongside helping to arm Boko Haram, the organisation that kidnapped hundreds of girls in Nigeria.
But no, it's in a fine state and in no way epitomises the chaos the west can cause by getting involved in things that don't concern it.
The repercussions from the western involvement also directly relate to the lack of action over Syria. Once we overstepped the mark by becoming the Rebel airforce under the guise of policing a "No Fly Zone" under the UN Resolution there was no way another UN resolution was going to be passed to allow the same to happen in Syria. Without UN backing only unilateral action could occur and luckily the UK voted that down too.
Steady on there John Wayne.
Especially as the civilian death toll in Gaza is over 500 now (to 2 Israelis, one of which was delivering food to soldiers). Cameron is actually backing that slaughter...
I can only reply with a lol here.
Especially for the thousands of innocent civilians killed due to us removing the security apparatus in the country...
Just to clarify the missile launcher was actually supposed to have two missiles missing..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...sile-launcher-being-smuggled-into-Russia.html
The Ukrainian military also insist they didn't lose a BUK, indicating at least one of those tweets was incorrect (although it would be easy for the rebels to claim that's where they got it from to clear the Russians).
Its kind of irrelevant - they didn't suddenly acquire a mass of these launchers that required manning... yes they have conscripts... its got very little to do with the existing launchers, crews etc...
... in enemy territory, nope not really logical.
Yes and the point is that some rebels with a captured launcher and just local radar are rather likely to make such a mistake... Ukrainian military with their own launcher for whatever reason, supposedly, looking for Russian planes - why shoot down an aircraft that's come from inside Ukraine... there are mistakes in terms of identity and then there is that situation which is just rather unplausible as a mistake.
I didn't say they couldn't make mistakes... just that the 'mistake' in this instance is rather unrealistic.
What is and what isn't enemy territory tends to fluctuate in conflict. Incursions into enemy territory are made, based on intelligence (which can be accurate or inaccurate). How do you know that the Ukrainians didn't receive intelligence that prompted them to send BUKs to that area, thereby explaining their presence?
Is it logical to bomb your own countrymen (and women and children) and force over 100,000 to seek refuge, not in Kiev or other western-controlled areas, but in Russia? Shows who they are more scared of, doesn't it?
Is it logical to deal so forcefully with a situation where the inhabitants of some regions have serious concerns about the power-shift in the capital? Is it logical to prove their fears of them acting like NAZIS, correct?
The inhabitants of the east did nothing that the inhabitants of Kiev didn't do. They took over government buildings, and refused to leave, and demanded certain things. New Kiev's patience with those in the east was far shorter-lived than Old Kiev's patience with the Maidan protestors.
They should have been tactful, taken their time, entered into talks, and proved to the people in the east that they would be treated correctly and not like second-class citizens. Instead they did the illogical thing - the opposite. You do know that people like Yulia Timoshenko have been caught in telephone intercepts too, plotting to foment a world war against Russia? Then you have Svoboda - the NAZIS. And even on a good day, Poroshenko and Yatsenko are hardly rational. The west has unleashed a right beast there, that constantly dehumanize their perceived enemies, calling them insects, gorillas etc. That sort of language is expected from those who hold no political office, in their anger, but not from those in the highest political offices of the land.
The lack of knowledge (both yours and mine) of all the facts, is what makes certain situations seem implausible. The introduction of new awareness of facts, can very suddenly alter what is plausible or implausible.
What if we knew that a Ukrainian jet had approached MH17, for example? How would that alter the plausibility of certain scenarios? See, we can think (for example) "it doesn't make sense for a Ukrainian jet to have approached MH17, therefore it didn't happen". But if there was proof, then we'd be forced to make sense of the known fact.
Hundreds of years ago, most people would have thought that craft weighing tons wouldn't be able to fly. Bring those people into the future, and make new facts available to them, and they are forced to make sense of the new facts. What new facts will we learn in the (near) future about the MH17 case? Do we already know everything we need to know, in order to discount some things completely? Do you already know what information is on the black boxes? Do you already know what information is on the air traffic control communication recordings? You're saying things don't make sense but even the most basic of facts aren't even in yet.
Who? The media outlets?
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US: No link to Russian government in Flight MH17 downing
I thought this deserved a new thread... I am just wondering, shouldnt Russia now present a massive fine bill to western media outlets and governments as reparations for the damage caused by spreading the bull crap.
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/...d=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=505510
I thought this deserved a new thread... I am just wondering, shouldnt Russia now present a massive fine bill to western media outlets and governments as reparations for the damage caused by spreading the bull crap.
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/...d=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=505510
1. This doesn't deserve its own thread, there's a very large thread for it.
2. The US have to be very careful with their wording. So does Russia.
3. There's no evidence to suggest that Russia pulled the trigger, but no-one has actually suggested anything of the sort. There is however, plenty of evidence to suggest that Russia had a hand -- that is, influence and/or equipment -- in the shooting. It is highly likely that it was just a very bad mistake. Claiming Russia ordered the plane to be shot down and the plane being shot down by accident (we hope) by equipment Russia supplied are two different things.
4. Link and run.
2. The US have to be very careful with their wording. So does Russia.
3. There's no evidence to suggest that Russia pulled the trigger, but no-one has actually suggested anything of the sort. There is however, plenty of evidence to suggest that Russia had a hand -- that is, influence and/or equipment -- in the shooting. It is highly likely that it was just a very bad mistake. Claiming Russia ordered the plane to be shot down and the plane being shot down by accident (we hope) by equipment Russia supplied are two different things.
4. Link and run.
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[TW]Fox;26647068 said:
oh great Druid, give us a glimpse of your crystal sphere.
are you for serious? how on earth can you know the truth.