Boeing 777 shot down

Nix said:
1. This doesn't deserve its own thread, there's a very large thread for it.

2. The US have to be very careful with their wording. So does Russia.

3. There's no evidence to suggest that Russia pulled the trigger, but no-one has actually suggested anything of the sort. There is however, plenty of evidence to suggest that Russia had a hand -- that is, influence and/or equipment -- in the shooting. It is highly likely that it was just a very bad mistake. Claiming Russia ordered the plane to be shot down and the plane being shot down by accident (we hope) by equipment Russia supplied are two different things.

4. Link and run.
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Agreed. Just to add that the pressure brought to bear on Russia is mainly due to Russia's support for the rebels in Eastern Ukraine who are identified to be the prime suspects in this tragedy, and the belief that if it weren't for Russia's actions in Ukraine the conditions for shooting down a passenger plane wouldn't have existed in the first place. And what's it all for? So Russia can maintain its "sphere of influence" :(
 
deanolfc said:
Why's cameron telling france not to sell the war ships all the while he's still selling arms to Russia, What a muppet he is. http://news.sky.com/story/1305860/uk-government-still-sending-arms-to-russia
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It says:

As of May, there were 285 outstanding licences allowing UK companies to export arms either to Russia or to another country which might then in time sell weapons to Russia.
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Licenses to sell arms != selling arms, that article mentions assault rifles, IIRC the only British assault rifle is an SA80? no soldier worth his salt would use an SA80 over a new AK, it's an inferior weapon, we only use them because they're British, it's that simple.
 
deanolfc said:
The Video says Only 34 of the 285 arms contracts have been cancelled.
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The article says Only 34 of the 285 licences have been cancelled, just because a companies is licensed to sell arms does not mean it is currently doing so, and of those 251 licenses most of them are not even with Russia but with "another country which might then in time sell weapons to Russia", that included countries like France, or Ukraine! lol.
 
ubersonic said:
It says:



Licenses to sell arms != selling arms, that article mentions assault rifles, IIRC the only British assault rifle is an SA80? no soldier worth his salt would use an SA80 over a new AK, it's an inferior weapon, we only use them because they're British, it's that simple.
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I am pretty sure the L85A2 is not up for export. The licence to sell arms means things like missiles, planes, tanks etc.

Also when you compare the big three. America's main rifle is the M16A2, Russia's is the AK74 and ours is the L85A2. Ours is the most modern out of all of them so hardly the worst..
 
adam cool dude said:
I am pretty sure the L85A2 is not up for export. The licence to sell arms means things like missiles, planes, tanks etc.

Also when you compare the big three. America's main rifle is the M16A2, Russia's is the AK74 and ours is the L85A2. Ours is the most modern out of all of them so hardly the worst..
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Most modern maybe but still third best. The reason groups of US soldiers were disciplined in Iraq for taking AK's from a cache they found and using their M16's as backup weapons wasn't because they thought the M16 worked better in that environment, and the reason you didn't see British soldiers do it was because they are better disciplined. I have seen an SA80 stripped, cleaned, etc then taken to the range and jammed. It is by no means a bad gun, just not as good/reliable as the AK or the modern M16.
 
The sensible people have never claimed russia directly shot it down, or ordered it shot down (the hawks will have been blaming them directly id imagine)

Its more the fact they are backing the rebels who did shoot it down (the russians themselves may have had absolutely nothing to do this incident, perhaps they stole the BUK from Ukraine / trainied or operated by Ukrainian deserters?) its because Russia are inciting that rebellion and feeding it generally that they are being criticised now

Imagine the outrage if western backed rebels shot down a civilian air liner?
people on here spit feathers about the UK even proposing to support various rebel groups around the world, let alone if they actually did and this had happened

- id imagine the starred out swearies and red angry face smiley count per post in GD would skyrocket astronomically - so why the hypocrisy when events are the other way around?
oh yeah its because ANYTHING our leaders say is wrong or lies :rolleyes:
 
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Ayahuasca said:
So you've either been locked in a room for nearly a week or you thought when you heard a civilian plane got shot down they all survived?
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No I know they all died but I didn't know who or why.
And I haven't been locked away in my room. I just don't have people come up to me and say "hey you heard about whats going over in Ukraine?":p
 
Apparently the Russian oligarchs are moving their money out of London already. By the time financial sanctions that are being planned against them get put in place all the money will be gone anyway.
 
NexusK said:
Apparently the Russian oligarchs are moving their money out of London already. By the time financial sanctions that are being planned against them get put in place all the money will be gone anyway.
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For their alleged lack of involvement in this tragedy were hitting them right where it hurts, in our wallets :P
 
Danny75 said:
You're saying things don't make sense but even the most basic of facts aren't even in yet.
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well no, you know... other than local reports of the Buk being moved into position by the separatists, then photos of it leaving the area minus one missile... telemetry of the missile launch from that area straight to the MAS flight... the separatists refusing access to the city where the missile launched from... shrapnel on the downed fuselage consistent with a SA11 missile strike... forum posts by the separatist leader (hurriedly removed, but hey its the internet) reported by the RU press where he crows he shot down a Ukranian cargo plane... intercepted comms where the separatists are discussing the fact they accidentally shot down a civilian airliner with their RU military backers...

Other than that, virtually nothing. Lets hope the black boxes clear up this mystery ey.
 
ubersonic said:
Most modern maybe but still third best. The reason groups of US soldiers were disciplined in Iraq for taking AK's from a cache they found and using their M16's as backup weapons wasn't because they thought the M16 worked better in that environment, and the reason you didn't see British soldiers do it was because they are better disciplined. I have seen an SA80 stripped, cleaned, etc then taken to the range and jammed. It is by no means a bad gun, just not as good/reliable as the AK or the modern M16.
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Since H&K overhauled the weapon and it became the A2 the thing has been very highly thought of, actually. The main reason many US troops looted AKMs is because it fires a larger calibre round than their platform and because they make for pretty cool bring-backs.
 
Devlish said:
well no, you know... lots of uncoloberated circumstantial evidence does not make a case, well unless the Daily Mail is judging

other than local reports of the Buk being moved into position by the separatists - unconfirmed, local reports

then photos of it leaving the area minus one missile... - photos of a Buk somewhere in time with only 3 out of a possible 4 missiles attached (the are numerous reasons why that would be the case)

telemetry of the missile launch from that area straight to the MAS flight... - Any link to this?

the separatists refusing access to the city where the missile launched from... - So your saying in the middle of a civil war that seperatists refused outsiders access to some of their territory? never! :O

shrapnel on the downed fuselage consistent with a SA11 missile strike... - Wow, people can tell just by looking at the damage and without any tests or investigation that not only was it caused by a missile but also exactly what kind of missile? (no, they cannot)

forum posts by the separatist leader (hurriedly removed, but hey its the internet) reported by the RU press where he crows he shot down a Ukranian cargo plane... - It was posted on VK (Russian Facebook) and wasn't his account just a fan page, also rebels and even armies have along history of claiming credit for any enemy aircraft downed in their airspace (Iraq tried to claim an F-15 that suffered mechanical failure)

intercepted comms where the separatists are discussing the fact they accidentally shot down a civilian airliner with their RU military backers... - a recording of an alleged conversation between two unknown parties? well you've convinced me...

Other than that, virtually nothing. Lets hope the black boxes clear up this mystery ey.
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scorza said:
But not for the thousands of innocent civilians killed by the security apparatus in the country presumably.
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But for the millions of people now living in a failed state, fearing for their lives. Lets face it, Gaddaffi wasn't an angel (but still an allie when we wanted it...) but it's in a much worse state now than it was before we decided to take sides in a tribal war.

I'm sure the Iraqis are really happy we deposed Saddam as well, and the people in Mali and the CAR, who bore the brunt of the insurgency brought about by the destabilisation of Libya.

The last time we can truly say we helped anyone is our intervention in Sierra Leone, helping a government put down a rebellion.
 
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