Boris's intensive care nurse

None of that changes the facts that the circuit breaker got recommended by SAGE and that Boris dithered on it. Costing lives.

Gov had seen an uptick in the figures. Fair enough they didn't know it was what's now called the Kent variant for a few weeks. The signs were there that infection rates were up and something was making COVID more transmissible. It was serious enough that Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance went and ran their own press conference on 21st September explaining the figures to the public as Boris wasn't listening.
Because putting a country into lockdown at the first sign wasn't the right call. The NHS was coping and Kent was already in Tier 3 - not that that actually made a lot of difference.

If we're working on that logic - we should be in rigidly enforced lockdown again now due to the India varient.
 
What was your proposal to prevent that happening?

The answer was of course lockdown and social distancing earlier as advised by SAGE. Very mild symptoms in the majority of people is a symptom of this virus, not just the Kent variant, your post implied this was something new when infact it wasn't. The reason why the Kent variant took over is because the Govt ignored scientific advise and acted much later than they needed to, they made the same mistake twice as well which makes it that much worse.
 
Because putting a country into lockdown at the first sign wasn't the right call. The NHS was coping and Kent was already in Tier 3 - not that that actually made a lot of difference.

If we're working on that logic - we should be in rigidly enforced lockdown again now due to the India varient.

Bit different, majority of the population are vaccinated now.
 
The answer was of course lockdown and social distancing earlier as advised by SAGE. Very mild symptoms in the majority of people is a symptom of this virus, not just the Kent variant, your post implied this was something new when infact it wasn't. The reason why the Kent variant took over is because the Govt ignored scientific advise and acted much later than they needed to, they made the same mistake twice as well which makes it that much worse.
Lockdown who? We were already in Tier 3 - which was identical to lockdown. Or do you mean closing all shops again. Because another bog roll panic was just what was needed. Close all the schools? Because key workers having to leave work to look after their children would have been great for NHS productivity.

The variant had already spread through hospitals, schools and other key workers before it was even known about. Stopping it was impossible - as has been proven numerous times. All they could do is slow it down so the NHS weren't overwhealmed. Which they did.
 
Because putting a country into lockdown at the first sign wasn't the right call. The NHS was coping and Kent was already in Tier 3 - not that that actually made a lot of difference.

If we're working on that logic - we should be in rigidly enforced lockdown again now due to the India variant.

We can debate that until the cows come home. Arguably a circuit breaker would have meant we didn't need a 3 month lockdown after Christmas when the NHS got overwhelmed for a second time. Nip it in the bud and all that.

The Tories have ****** up on border control repeatedly, for reasons I can't begin to understand. Boris valued the scent of an Indian trade deal more than human lives, as witnessed by Pakistan and Bangladesh going on the red list weeks before India. Now that 10000+ have flown in directly and some apparently not quarantined at home properly we're screwed again. It's just idiocy that Boris keeps making the same mistakes time and time again.

They'll wheel Matt Hancock out for damage control, with George Eustace as backup shortly ... just to confirm I'm right.
 
We can debate that until the cows come home. Arguably a circuit breaker would have meant we didn't need a 3 month lockdown after Christmas when the NHS got overwhelmed for a second time. Nip it in the bud and all that.

The Tories have ****** up on border control repeatedly, for reasons I can't begin to understand. Boris valued the scent of an Indian trade deal more than human lives, as witnessed by Pakistan and Bangladesh going on the red list weeks before India. Now that 10000+ have flown in directly and some apparently not quarantined at home properly we're screwed again. It's just idiocy that Boris keeps making the same mistakes time and time again.

They'll wheel Matt Hancock out for damage control, with George Eustace as backup shortly ... just to confirm I'm right.
Oh it's border control now. Because that strategy worked so well for Trump didn't it. Next you'll be blaming him for Brexit.
 
We can debate that until the cows come home. Arguably a circuit breaker would have meant we didn't need a 3 month lockdown after Christmas when the NHS got overwhelmed for a second time. Nip it in the bud and all that.

The Tories have ****** up on border control repeatedly, for reasons I can't begin to understand. Boris valued the scent of an Indian trade deal more than human lives, as witnessed by Pakistan and Bangladesh going on the red list weeks before India. Now that 10000+ have flown in directly and some apparently not quarantined at home properly we're screwed again. It's just idiocy that Boris keeps making the same mistakes time and time again.

They'll wheel Matt Hancock out for damage control, with George Eustace as backup shortly ... just to confirm I'm right.

The chancellor uncle or someone else close to him is involved in that trade agreement so no surprise yet again tory party members benefiting from these kind of things, end of the day money will always come first with that party.

The government as usual got off lightly by the uk press for the india flights debacle.
 
What is the right amount?

When I read the first story this year about nurses been underpaid, i checked what they get paid and expected it to be under 20k somewhere. But their salaries are actually quite high now compared to historical levels. The problem with just giving everyone what they want is then you have to make cuts elsewhere to pay for it, so give all nurses 5k a year pay rise but at the same time close 5% of wards, and get rid of all porters to pay for it.

This is the mistake Labour made, they poured money into the NHS but most of it went on improving contracts, now we have doctors been paid £100+ an hour to cover a&e, GP's who wont work out of hours.

If the NHS is under capacity which it is hugely, the capacity problems has to be a priority over increasing salaries.

I think there should be a temporary danger money element when treating covid patients though.


It's not about giving everyone huge increases but it should be in line with the private sector and not a pay structure that tries to exist in a completely separate bubble. There's also plenty of places to make cuts but often the public sector doesn't lay people off, but there's plenty in supporting back office roles that aren't all necessary. Neither are the volume of managers, business consultants, project managers etc. Neither is all the waste on outsourcing where costs are higher than they ought to be if instead done in-house, IT is one example where laptops can be twice the cost I could go and buy a similar if not identical spec at retail. The capacity problems in the NHS is partly down to salaries though as the commitment expected and pay is not as good as the private sector. Hence you have a high churn of staff and huge HR departments to satisfy the merry go round of filling vacancies.
 
Lol, she was on 52k apparently poor thing.

I sense sarcasm. Care to justify why that's a problem given that :
1) It's a Inner-London job. Payscales are higher to offset the costs of living/working.
2) It's not a 9-5 Monday-Friday job. So again, there's extra pay for working unsociable hours and weekends. I bet she was doing more than 37 hours a week.
 
Are we just pulling numbers from thin air and claiming they're not enough now?

https://www.nurses.co.uk/nursing/bl...f-nurses--salaries-in-the-uk-in-2021/#banding

Just to clarify this, most nurses are Band 5 - that's what you would consider a standard nursing role. Band 6 is a separate role (roughly equivalent to the old-fashioned matron) - you don't automatically move into band 6 after x years of work - typically there will only be 1 or 2 band 6 roles on a ward, and it involves a huge amount of admin coupled with standard nursing work. Most nurses won't look at band 6 roles because you tend to lose any unsociable hours payments, and you will definitely end up giving extra hours for no extra pay.

Band 5 salaries start at about £25k, and you get a raise every year until you hit the top end of the band salary - that's about £30k at the moment, and I think that takes 6 years. Once you hit the top of your band, you get no payrise except whatever the government decides, so when there's an 8 year pay freeze (which ended a couple of years back) top of band nurses get zip - or more realistically with inflation, a pay cut.

There is no option to "go somewhere else", because NHS pay is set across the board. London gets more, because London, but that's basically it. Nurses do earn for unsociable hours (nights and weekends), but then they also work really unsociable hours - and you have no control over this. There has also been some talk about removing this extra pay.

They also don't get paid for breaks any more (even though many nurses aren't allowed to leave their ward) and that had a knock-on effect of meaning nurses will end up "owing" a shift every month - was a nice sneaky way of adding some nursing shifts for free.

Some other notes:
  • Band 5 nurses have to have a degree now - and yes, you do pay £9k a year for this. It's effectively a full time degree and a part-time HCA role, so good luck working around that. It used to be free with a bursary - they removed the bursary for about 5 years, but that's now back - you now get about £5k a year as standard.
  • You can become a band 4 by working as a carer and doing a nursing course. You earn less and have less capabilities - it's a good way of boosting "nursing" numbers, but there are lots of duties they are not allowed to perform.
  • Typical wards run 13 hour shifts, say from 7am/pm to 8pm/am - if you don't have an astonishing family support structure, good luck finding affordable childcare for that. Standard M-F/9-5 roles are rare and highly fought over.
  • Many wards do not have a doctor available 24/7, so it is entirely on the nurses. They will have an on-call doctor, who may be based in a different county, or 999 as a backup - lots of nurses have stories about ambulance crews that are angry they've had to attend a community hospital for a patient who's fallen and hit their head.
  • If they follow a doctor's orders and they're wrong (such as a drug dose), that's on the nurse - they're expected to catch the doctor's mistakes.
  • They typically have to reskill every 3-5 years on procedures, such as IVs. Depending on their trust, that may well be on the nurses to track and organise themselves. Interestingly, doctors don't. You would be amazed at how many doctors can't do things like put cannulas in because they haven't done it for 10 years.
Nursing may look like a well paid job on paper, but it really isn't when you consider all the variables that go into it. I get paid twice what my wife does, do much less work and have zero stress in comparison.
 
Yeah well the average London salary is 38k so a fair bit above that. But anyhow she's free to leave and get a highly paid job in the sunshine, I don't blame her if she is motivated that much by money.
As many people have said nurses feel undervalued and are probably leaving the profession but then a lot of people feel undervalued.
 
Yeah well the average London salary is 38k so a fair bit above that. But anyhow she's free to leave and get a highly paid job in the sunshine, I don't blame her if she is motivated that much by money.
As many people have said nurses feel undervalued and are probably leaving the profession but then a lot of people feel undervalued.

It's a more highly qualified job. :rolleyes:

If you think it's that cushty, go and retrain as a nurse and move to London.
 
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