Botched execution in the US

[Xordium]

I disagree, if you violate the basic principles of medicine you are not a physician. Being a doctor is more than just having a medical degree, you must act in an ethical manner, ie. not murdering people in the capacity of a state hitman.

They are acting in an ethical manner they just have different obligations to what you deem acceptable. In this case they are weighing beneficence for the greater society and advocacy for the state vs maleficence against the convict.

Isn't it obvious?

Yes, it is obvious they are using agents that will tick all the boxes for a death. Again you are ignoring why they can't use anaesthetics.

 

[dowie]

I personally refrain from calling them doctors, they are not physicians if they act contrary to their profession.

Afaik they aren't doctors - there is a doctor present (in this case the guy who verified the victim was unconscious) but I think the drugs are actually administered by non-medics.

 

[dowie]

I believe a doctor would have been present in the uk too when we used to hang people.

 

[diamount]

I know we'd have several people on this forum who would in likelihood claim they would love the job the real world shows that when people undertake such things it tends to do them irreversible psychological harm.

I don't see that being a thing. When execution by firing squad was the main form of capital punishment, those guys were like machines.

 

[Energize]

Yes, it is obvious they are using agents that will tick all the boxes for a death. Again you are ignoring why they can't use anaesthetics.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying don't do it if you can't get appropriate drugs. And I don't believe they can't find any suitable drugs and have to resort to those kind of dirty drugs.

Opioids are another option as you said yourself. I simply can't believe that they don't have access to any sedative hypnotic/anaesthetics like barbiturates, carbamates, propofol, etomidate, GHB or ketamine, or opioids like morphine, oxycodone, hydromorphone etc.

 

[Xordium]

Afaik they aren't doctors - there is a doctor present (in this case the guy who verified the victim was unconscious) but I think the drugs are actually administered by non-medics.

The doctors's job is to ensure the IV line is patent, confirm sedation, monitor for undue suffering and/or pain, confirm death. Not all are relevant to all states. The drugs are administered by a non-described person which may or not be the doctor. US doctors have been shown willing to give such injections though. The fact the line was femoral this time indicates it was a doctor who did it. Also note not that many doctors in the US are members of a professional body such as we have in this country.

 

[wkingsnorth]

Afaik they aren't doctors - there is a doctor present (in this case the guy who verified the victim was unconscious) but I think the drugs are actually administered by non-medics.

I believe so, because the doctors won't break the Hippocratic Oath. The execution is done by an Emergency Medical Technician - more or less a well trained First Aider.

Although I could be entirely wrong because my source is a documentary I watched two years ago so...

 

[Energize]

They are acting in an ethical manner they just have different obligations to what you deem acceptable. In this case they are weighing beneficence for the greater society and advocacy for the state vs maleficence against the convict.

We'll have to disagree on that point, murder is never ethical.

 

[Xordium]

I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying don't do it if you can't get appropriate drugs. And I don't believe they can't find any suitable drugs and have to resort to those kind of dirty drugs.

Opioids are another option as you said yourself. I simply can't believe that they don't have access to any sedative hypnotic/anaesthetics like barbiturates, carbamates, propofol, etomidate, GHB or ketamine, or opioids like morphine, oxycodone, hydromorphone etc.

As has already been stated they don't want to be seen to make the ending pleasant so therefore they rule out opiates and anaesthesia is out because they source the agents from the EU and there is the fear that if they were used in executions then they would have the drugs stopped totally and therefore wouldn't be able to continue normal procedures.

 

[Xordium]

We'll have to disagree on that point, murder is never ethical.

I am not saying it is from my point of view. That is how they argue it using the same ethical framework we do. The have the same ethics they just apply the level of importance to the state/country as ranking higher than the individual.

 

[Energize]

As has already been stated they don't want to be seen to make the ending pleasant so therefore they rule out opiates and anaesthesia is out because they source the agents from the EU and there is the fear that if they were used in executions then they would have the drugs stopped totally and therefore wouldn't be able to continue normal procedures.

I think that makes it worse, refusing to use opioids for that reason, and given the fact that barbiturates are also recreational drugs it doesn't make much sense anyway.

There are anaesthesics manufactured in the US like GHB. And I'm sure that the US government with all it's resources could manufacture barbiturates given that clandestine labs have been found making them.

I am not saying it is from my point of view. That is how they argue it using the same ethical framework we do. The have the same ethics they just apply the level of importance to the state/country as ranking higher than the individual.

Don't you think there are objective standards that physicians must be held to? Like, "do no harm"?

The patient should always be the first priority, not society.

 

[dowie]

The doctors's job is to ensure the IV line is patent, confirm sedation, monitor for undue suffering and/or pain, confirm death. Not all are relevant to all states. The drugs are administered by a non-described person which may or not be the doctor. US doctors have been shown willing to give such injections though. The fact the line was femoral this time indicates it was a doctor who did it. Also note not that many doctors in the US are members of a professional body such as we have in this country.

The fact the IV line to the groin was botched up and caused this mess could also indicate that it wasn't a doctor.... I'm pretty sure Doctors don't actually administer the drugs at least... its against the laws of most states AFAIK. They might be required to be present but not necessarily in a hands on capacity.

 

[Tombo]

What a horrible thing for the people in the viewing room to witness though.

That's what you get for wanting to spectate an execution.

 

[RDM]

We'll have to disagree on that point, murder is never ethical.

It isn't murder as murder is unlawful killing.

 

[SkodaMart]

Even Vitnary can perform euthanasia without commotion, what's up with these morons?

 

[Energize]

It isn't murder as murder is unlawful killing.

Ok. In the interests of semantics allow me to rephrase.

Executing someone is always unethical.

Even Vitnary can perform euthanasia without commotion, what's up with these morons?

The companies that manufacture the standard euthanasia drugs that vets use won't allow them to be used for executions, which is partly the reason for the use of these terrible drugs like potassium chloride for executions.

This article was published in a medical journal.

“As clinicians and prescribers of Lundbeck’s products, we are appalled at the inaction of Lundbeck to prevent the supply of their drug, Nembutal [pentobarbital], for use in executions in the USA,” the letter stated. “Pentobarbital is rapidly proving to be the drug of choice for U.S. executions. Lundbeck should restrict distribution of pentobarbital to legitimate users … but not to executioners.”

Subsequently leading to this.

On Friday, Lundbeck said it would now review all orders for the drug and "deny orders from prisons located in states currently active in carrying out death penalty sentences." Before receiving pentobarbital, buyers must sign a form stating that the drug "is for its own use and that it will not redistribute any purchased product without express written authorization from Lundbeck," the company said.
"Lundbeck adamantly opposes the distressing misuse of our product in capital punishment," Chief Executive Ulf Wiinberg said. He added that the new system would not "guarantee" that the drug won't wind up in the hands of prison systems, but that it should "play a substantial role in restricting prisons' access to Nembutal."

 

[Guest2]

Lockett was sentenced to death for shooting 19-year-old Stephanie Neiman and watching as two accomplices buried her alive in 1999

Who gives a ****? Should have injected him with Harpic Power Plus with a syringe driver over the course of a week

"It was a horrible thing to witness. This was totally botched," Mr Autry said

I bet Mr/Mrs Neiman wouldn't have thought so

 

[Xordium]

Don't you think there are objective standards that physicians must be held to? Like, "do no harm"?

The patient should always be the first priority, not society.

I would agree but unfortunately it's part of the problem with practising over there. I think from my short time there only about a quarter were actually in the AMA.

They quite happily will go to bed at night claiming they have done no harm because they didn't harm the state rather than the person.

The fact the IV line to the groin was botched up and caused this mess could also indicate that it wasn't a doctor.... I'm pretty sure Doctors don't actually administer the drugs at least... its against the laws of most states AFAIK. They might be required to be present but not necessarily in a hands on capacity.

Femoral lines shouldn't be attempted by any old doctor let alone anyone else. And come on look at the bloke are we saying they seriously couldn't find a vein on him! Not many doctors can put in a femoral line I doubt many of the ones we have on here would be comfortable doing so and would pass such a thing onto a intensivist or anaesthetist. (well they should). The only people I've seen who put them outside of that are the overconfident and reckless, the desperate and people functioning in a combat medic role.

They deliberately obfuscate who gives the drug but I know they did survey US doctors and around a fifth said they would give the syringe a push. They're a different breed over there especially outside of the big centres.

 

[Andy_82]

It does make you think who designed the protocol and their aims. the aim is a relatively humane death you don't need three agents or even an intravenous line for that, a simple insulin overdose would work maybe with small amount of midazolam or other benzodiazipine. especially as as far as i've read it isn't the doctor who pushes the drugs, i'm not even sure if they place the cannula.

But it seems it's the opposite approach they have gone for, complicated, painful, sure if all three drugs are infused it should be quick but why make it more complicated than it needs to be. I don't really understand their methods or reasoning for choosing the those agents.

Although saying all that, I don't support capital punishment either, I think it is incredible barbaric there's just no evidence that it either saves money or is an effective deterrent, and that's not forgetting the fact miscarriages of justice cannot be undone.

 

[Xordium]

I think they've basically applied a very reductionist approach to it and they have said right we need to hit the brain - midazolam, the respiration system - vecuronium and the heart - KCl. Then they've ticked all the boxes for death rather than actually thinking about how to do it.