Boy removed from school in transgender rights row

[balky12]

I don’t get the need for everyone to stick their oar in when it comes to how transgender children are treated.

I believe children should be children first and foremost. Enjoy their youth.

Not corrupted by flavour of the month politics in order to fit in and be cool. With this current fad it can have long term irreversible consequences. Luckily we are stricter in the UK when it comes to hormone treatment and gender re-assignment surgery.

Unfortunately there have been circumstances in other countries where children have expressed dissatisfaction in their current body and granted treatment, only to change their mind later on in life.

After being told they can be whatever they want to be, being told, that actually, you can't go back, somewhat confused them.

 

[h4rm0ny]

People like to be angry about things, particularly unfamiliar things that they don't understand.

Alternately the instinct to care for children and react negatively when we think they are being harmed, is an instinctive and normal behaviour. If you read a story about the Church of Scientology opening a foster home for young children, if you heard about someone who beat their child every morning because it "instilled discipline" or mutilated childrens genitals for religious reasons would you immediately stop yourself from saying or doing anything because you "just liked to be angry about things you didn't understand"? I seriously hope not. Why? Because you would believe a child was being harmed so you would speak out.

Don't casually dismiss people as selfish just because they have a different view of what constitutes harm to a child. Instead, dispute - if you wish - with whether it's actually harm.

 

[asim18]

People like to be angry about things, particularly unfamiliar things that they don't understand.

Who's angry? The word you should be using is concern. People are concerned about certain things. Anger follows, and that is down to the individual.

Yeah I'm angry about kids wanting to commit suicide.
I worry about kids being so confused that they grow up wanting and, more worryingly "needing" to self mutilate.
What's wrong with being angry about increasing proportions of the younger generations growing up absolutely hating themselves and ending up mental wrecks on brain meds.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Who's angry? The word you should be using is concern. People are concerned about certain things. Anger follows, and that is down to the individual.

Yeah I'm angry about kids wanting to commit suicide.
I worry about kids being so confused that they grow up wanting and, more worryingly "needing" to self mutilate.
What's wrong with being angry about increasing proportions of the younger generations growing up absolutely hating themselves and ending up mental wrecks on brain meds.

Who's angry? Daily Mail readers in this instance.

 

[Tunney]

Not corrupted by flavour of the month politics in order to fit in and be cool.

Being transgender isn’t cool. It’s pretty miserable life. For most transgender people, it’s a life of constantly being worried about your safety and about employment prospects. We’re seeing more people seeking treatment because society is becoming a little more accepting. These people have always existed but felt that they had to live their lives in private before.

Remember that the first step in treatment is always therapy. Often years and years of therapy before any further treatment is given. Anyone doing it in a misguided attempt to fit in will be weeded out pretty quickly in the NHS.

I think that most people in this country are like you - you’re happy for people to be who they want without much judgement. However, the right-wing press are inciting hatred against transgender people and that’s only going to embolden those violently opposed to transgender people.

 

[terley]

Williams institute study in regards to Sucicidality amongst transgender

The most striking finding of our analysis was the exceptionally high prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts reported by NTDS respondents. In looking at the percentages reporting a lifetime attempt within various subgroups of the overall sample, we repeatedly found “lows” in the range of 30 to 40 percent, while the “highs” exceeded 50 or even 60 percent. Even taking into consideration that some degree of over-reporting likely occurred in the survey, the results suggest these transgender and gender non-conforming respondents have experienced exceptionally high levels of suicidality.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

The numbers (around 40%) are only seconded by people with paranoid schizophrenia - there is also no evidence to prove that mistreatment or social pressures have any effect on the numbers.

It is literally illogical to perceive that transgenderism is not a mental health condition, that should be treated with Psychotherapy.

 

[terley]

Being transgender isn’t cool. It’s pretty miserable life. For most transgender people, it’s a life of constantly being worried about your safety and about employment prospects. We’re seeing more people seeking treatment because society is becoming a little more accepting. These people have always existed but felt that they had to live their lives in private before.

Remember that the first step in treatment is always therapy. Often years and years of therapy before any further treatment is given. Anyone doing it in a misguided attempt to fit in will be weeded out pretty quickly in the NHS.

I think that most people in this country are like you - you’re happy for people to be who they want without much judgement. However, the right-wing press are inciting hatred against transgender people and that’s only going to embolden those violently opposed to transgender people.

My brother wasn't "weeded" out by the NHS, he was almost immediately offered HRT.. After many years of living as a woman, he realized what a mistake he had made.. The damage that has been done is now irreversible.

 

[Tunney]

there is also no evidence to prove that mistreatment or social pressures have any effect on the numbers.

From very top of the link you just posted:

Respondents who experienced rejection by family and friends, discrimination, victimization, or violence had elevated prevalence of suicide attempts, such as those who experienced the following:
— Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57%
— Discrimination, victimization, or violence at school, at work, and when accessing health care
• Harassed or bullied at school (any level): 50-54%
• Experienced discrimination or harassment at work: 50-59%
• Doctor or health care provider refused to treat them: 60%
• Suffered physical or sexual violence: — At work: 64-65%
— At school (any level): 63-78%
— Discrimination, victimization, or violence by law enforcement
• Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement of cers: 57-61%
• Suffered physical or sexual violence: By law enforcement of cers: 60-70
— Experienced homelessness: 69%

The attitudes of society has a huge impact on the well-being of transgender people.

 

[terley]

From very top of the link you just posted:



The attitudes of society has a huge impact on the well-being of transgender people.

Of course, although if you read the full report and other reports you will see that there is no actual study to test the hypothesis...
1) Mistreatment Exists
2) Transgenderism causes high sucicidality

Just because those two facts are prevalent, does not draw a direct correlation. And it does not explain the exceptionally high rates amongst those who don't experience any form of discrimination.

 

[FoxEye]

I don’t get the need for everyone to stick their oar in when it comes to how transgender children are treated. I’m happy to trust medical professionals and scientists if they say that gender dysphoria isn’t simply a mental illness. They might not have all the answers yet - and there might be a few quacks working in the private sector - but they’ve got a better handle on what gets results than we do.

Yes, because no medical professional every felt pressure to conform to societal norms to keep their jobs.

And also it's absolutely right and proper for 3 year olds to be receiving treatment for transgender conditions. Because any self-respecting 3 year old would know for certain that he's transgender.

 

[FoxEye]

Don't casually dismiss people as selfish just because they have a different view of what constitutes harm to a child. Instead, dispute - if you wish - with whether it's actually harm.

It's Von. He dismisses everyone who doesn't agree with him as a bigoted dullard. He's like Trump - he understands everything really, really well, and can't stand people who don't understand as well as he does

 

[Tunney]

And also it's absolutely right and proper for 3 year olds to be receiving treatment for transgender conditions. Because any self-respecting 3 year old would know for certain that he's transgender.

What kind of treatment does a three-year old receive on the NHS? How many three-year olds have been treated?

 

[FoxEye]

What kind of treatment does a three-year old receive on the NHS? How many three-year olds have been treated?

Hopefully none! But we know they are being referred to specialist units at that age!

Perhaps it's to assuage the fears of the parents more than to treat the child. I would sincerely hope so.

 

[terley]

I don’t get the need for everyone to stick their oar in when it comes to how transgender children are treated. I’m happy to trust medical professionals and scientists if they say that gender dysphoria isn’t simply a mental illness. They might not have all the answers yet - and there might be a few quacks working in the private sector - but they’ve got a better handle on what gets results than we do.

What about doctors that gave gay men Chemical Castration over the past hundred or so years... Or how about lobotomies?

Just because doctors do something, or the law says its ok.. doesn't mean that its right.. The public need to hold them to account.

 

[h4rm0ny]

My brother wasn't "weeded" out by the NHS, he was almost immediately offered HRT.. After many years of living as a woman, he realized what a mistake he had made.. The damage that has been done is now irreversible.

I knew someone who was getting hormone treatments in "preparation" for a sex change. He had no intention of going through with it and just wanted to grow breasts. Absolutely true. We were all on condition of silence because he said if they found out he wasn't going to have the operation they'd stop letting him have the hormones. He stopped them himself after a while because they made him feel ill or something. It was a while ago. Other than having very weird sexual fetishes and living a lifestyle that included a LOT of drugs, he was fairly psychologically stable. As much as anyone is, anyway. I don't know the details intimately but I never had the impression there was any great degree of filtering. I think he probably had to answer a few questions, wrote down or said what would get him the treatment and got it. Honestly, I doubt the NHS even has the resources to give someone the level of psychological treatment that would be necessary to unpick why and whether someone should get a sex change. You could be talking months of hour long sessions examining someone's childhood, life, etc. I genuinely believe that people can have inappropriate sex changes that are harmful to them without anyone stopping them.

An anecdote is not data. But when you're disproving a hypothesis, it's counter-evidence.

 

[Vonhelmet]

It's Von. He dismisses everyone who doesn't agree with him as a bigoted dullard. He's like Trump - he understands everything really, really well, and can't stand people who don't understand as well as he does

Your mum understands things really well.

Or something.

 

[Tunney]

What about doctors that gave gay men Chemical Castration over the past hundred or so years... Or how about lobotomies?

How many of the gay men who were chemically castrated did so willingly and why did they do so willingly? No doubt because living as a gay man back then was like living as a transgendered person now. Being gay fifty years ago was a miserable and dangerous life. Being chemically castrated was seen as the least worst option.

No gay person would opt for chemical castration now because society has become more accepting of gay people and the law protects their rights.

I believe that the same will happen to a degree with transgender people. Fewer will seek surgery once society is more accepting of non-binary people.

Just because doctors do something, or the law says its ok.. doesn't mean that its right.. The public need to hold them to account.

Is that the same for vaccinations? Plenty of the people believe that they cause autism. How about chemotherapy? Plenty of people believe that chemotherapy only makes cancer worse and that we should be treating cancer with alternative medicine.

I’d generally trust someone who gets their information from the Lancet over someone who gets their information from the Daily Mail.

Ethics certainly has a part to play in modern medicine but there are plenty of safeguards in place to stop dangerous or unethical behaviour.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I think there are two broad categories of people who believe they are "the wrong sex". There are people with an actual mental disorder which I see as akin to anorexia and other conditions where you reject your body as wrong. I don't know why this exists, I believe it does, I do refer to it as a disorder. I believe people with it should be treated with empathy and compassion, not prejudice. I do not feel it should be a political issue anymore than amputation or hair lips should. Whether or not sex change surgery is an appropriate treatment I do not know. I am open to it being a possibility. I've read some statistics about suicide rates and regrets after transition that would suggest it's not a good way to help someone in many cases. But I also know of people who do seem happier having finally become the "right" sex. What I will say then is that I have no problem with someone like this changing sex if there's a high degree of confidence it will help.

But there is also the other category of people who think they should transition and these are those who have no disorder but for social or personal reasons are very mixed up and latch onto this as a fix or as a political identity. And some of these do so because they have ingrained ideas of what a gender is supposed to be. A man must be like this. A woman like that. These people I think both society and their friends are failing.

 

[Angilion]

Eve was formed from Adam's rib, at least so far as the creation myth goes.

Which one? Genesis 1 just states that God created humans in his own image, both sexes at the same time from nothing. Genesis 2 changes that to Adam being made from dust and Eve being made later from Adam's rib.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Which one? Genesis 1 just states that God created humans in his own image, both sexes at the same time from nothing. Genesis 2 changes that to Adam being made from dust and Eve being made later from Adam's rib.

Original version, it says "the lords" rather than "The Lord" as well! Hebrew creation myths are all kinds of funky. Don't forget the stuff that was never formalised into the Bible. Like Lillith who wasn't created from Adam's rib but was an original like him. But Adam complained to God because she kept wanting to go on top (iirc) so she got thrown out of Eden and God made Adam a new wife out of his own body so she'd be obedient to him and go on her back. Genesis is considered to have been added to the Torah between 5th and 4th centuries BC and the Lillith myth seems to have derived from Babylonian folklore but the "first wife" part probably wasn't part of their creation myths till later. I've always liked it though. The ancient hebrews were patriarchal ******* even back then.

My favourite versions are the Gnostic Christian versions of Genesis. God who created the world is essentially this blind, unreasoning force and it's the Devil that is the force for good, bringing knowledge of good and evil to Adam and Eve. Oh, and the Devil is a girl. It's much better, imo. I mean what kind of religion considers knowledge of good and evil to be a BAD thing.

I'd also given an honourable shout out to the Russell Crowe version in Noah where the director seems to have said: "biblical literalism or Darwinian evolution... Eh - they're compatible!"