Brazilian Grand Prix 2011, Interlagos Circuit - Race 19/19

Yep.

But then this is a team who clearly told Mark to stay behind Vettel at Silverstone.

I just think its people searching for something to complain about, whereas it doesn't matter weather they hid the truth or not, using team orders to get Mark in front is perfectly fine, so at the end of the day, does it matter?

If team orders were still banned, then sure. But as they aren't, what's the issue here?
 
MooMoo444 said:
Granted but it doesnt look good in the public eye if he wins just because Seb moves over.

If they create an aura of a false gearbox issue, then it gives Mark's win more..whats the word, prestige?

If you catch my drift.
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Not really - Id rather have RB having the guts to make the call publicly than to hide it - as far as Im concerned team orders should always have been fine; the money involved within the sport just makes drivers egos insignificant...

MW well aware what a gift of a win hes had, but for him its a good end to the season and something to kick start the next. Definitely feels a bit warmer at RB for him...

I do have a loaded question that Id like to try and discuss (as adults) - its well known LH has had his worst season in F1 this year, but looking over his past results it does seem since becoming WDC hes been on a downwards spiral (Id argue it was already happening in that same season). Many people expected far more potential from him, but has he already peaked and do you think hes progressed as a driver since then?

Think its a worthwhile question to discuss now the seasons over

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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ps3ud0 said:
Not really - Id rather have RB having the guts to make the call publicly than to hide it - as far as Im concerned team orders should always have been fine; the money involved within the sport just makes drivers egos insignificant...

MW well aware what a gift of a win hes had, but for him its a good end to the season and something to kick start the next. Definitely feels a bit warmer at RB for him...

I do have a loaded question that Id like to try and discuss (as adults)- its well known LH has had his worst season in F1 this year, but looking over his past results it does seem since becoming WDC hes been on a downwards spiral (Id argue it was already happening in that same season). Many people expected far more potential from him, but has he already peaked and do you think hes progressed as a driver since then?

Think its a worthwhile question to discuss now the seasons over

ps3ud0 :cool:
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never liked the idea of team orders myself - and when they were banned and yet nothing was really done when a "team orders" decision happened on the track it was a total shambles, so at least its a little more even now (with team orders being allowed it goes with the territory that there could be different levels of support within the same team for the different drivers, and this is a pet hate of mine)

Re LH - I actually think he missed the ideal time for his talents to be displayed to their fullest - ie when teams spent unjustifiable amounts on being the quickest possible no matter what. Now that different items of the car have to be constantly monitorred and in a sense economised during a race, Im not 100% sure the viewers will ever see the best of Lewis
 
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FrankJH said:
never liked the idea of team orders myself - and when they were banned and yet nothing was really done when a "team orders" decision happened on the track it was a total shambles, so at least its a little more even now (with team orders being allowed it goes with the territory that there could be different levels of support within the same team for the different drivers, and this is a pet hate of mine)
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I find team orders easier to digest when I consider F1 a team sport rather than an individual one. Lets be honest not one TP gives a rats arse about the WDC as its all about the WCC and the vast sums of money that comes with it as that for some teams its their lifeblood to remain in the sport (sure commentary mentioned how Lotus are already 'spending' for next year on the assumption of where they willin the WCC this season)...

FrankJH said:
Re LH - I actually think he missed the ideal time for his talents to be displayed to their fullest - ie when teams spent unjustifiable amounts on being the quickest possible no matter what. Now that different items of the car have to be constantly monitorred and in a sense economised during a race, Im not 100% sure the viewers will ever see the best of Lewis
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Really good point, perhaps F1 has moved away from ultimate pace, ultimate speed where drivers like LH excel and moved over to something that requires far more consistency and overall race management which has allowed drivers like JB to flourish. Obviously theres people like SV who just can do both at the same time :mad::p

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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Lewis reminds me of Montoya, great driver but a bit reckless and surrounded by controversy.

I think he started losing it when he got this new manager, he's made some really bad moves in the public spotlight as well as on track.
 
MooMoo444 said:
Lewis reminds me of Montoya, great driver but a bit reckless and surrounded by controversy.
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The mad thing is that for a lot of people what Montoya did was acceptable and put down to his latin roots (just like how FA is portrayed) - perhaps LH being British hasnt helped him...
MooMoo444 said:
I think he started losing it when he got this new manager, he's made some really bad moves in the public spotlight as well as on track.
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I cant help but agree, but feel like Im doing a dis-service to him as a driver, if I need to have a go at him off-track aswell as on. Probably best if I dont say much further on that as it just ends up being speculation...
sunama said:
:D
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Ive got to the point where I can see SV being the Rossi of F1, just devastating the field and pretty much all the fans loving it; as good as MSC was, he was never loved...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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SV is definitely top class and providing RBR continue giving him a great car, he has every chance of breaking all of MSc's records. The only thing that can stop him is if he gets a bad car OR if another top class driver joins his team. I would love it if Hamilton joined RBR. There would be complete chaos at RBR - with toys being thrown all about the place :p I can't that happening..though anything is possible in F1 and in sport, in general.
 
I can see it now Sunama, both cars in the garage.. SV & LHs cars with dummies and rattle toys flying out the cockpit :D
 
Just reading a few twitter rumours saying that Ricciardo will be driving for Caterham next year replacing Trulli, along with Raikkonen going to bad Lotus.
 
sunama said:
SV is definitely top class and providing RBR continue giving him a great car, he has every chance of breaking all of MSc's records. The only thing that can stop him is if he gets a bad car OR if another top class driver joins his team. I would love it if Hamilton joined RBR. There would be complete chaos at RBR - with toys being thrown all about the place :p I can't that happening..though anything is possible in F1 and in sport, in general.
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I just dont think LH has the tools in his arsenal to cope with SV or be anywhere near him over race distance - no doubt LH is one of the best over a single lap, but nothing Ive seen suggests he can do that over a stint without affecting his tyre management especially this season - hes far too hot and cold like the Ferraris have been...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
I don't think anyone can disagree that LH has been going downhill since his WDC, the stats themselves prove that.

2009 was a year where the poor performance of the car hid his skills. He did manage to drag it to a couple of wins though. 2010 he did well, but not as dominant as he had been in previous years or formulas, and didn't destroy his team mate like people thought (there is another discussion point about JBs form). This year has been flat out bad. partly him, partly bad luck, but overall, bad.

Anyone who saw Hamiltons GP2 race at Silverstone in 2006 will know that Lewis is an out and out racer, who makes the pass when there is no gap, and goes for the win regardless. The trouble is F1 has now developed a culture of any minor touch gets a massive penalty, so the rewards of making a half chance into an overtake are outweighed by the risk of a penalty if it goes wrong. And I think this is where he has suffered most.

For example, look at India this year. Hamilton went for a gap at a point in the track not regarded as an overtaking spot. a few years back, people were praising him for that exact reason, going for the half chance and making it work. It was the reaosn everyone raved about him, he was a real race going for the gap. The new Senna, etc etc etc. However, now, when he makes a move like that, suddenly everyone is on at him for 'stupid' moves and going for an overtake at somewhere where it isnt considered an overtaking spot. The exact reason people priased him a few years back is now their reason to slate him.

I think F1 as it currently stands does not suit Lewis' driving style. Take yesterdays race. He was behind Massa for quite a while, and while taking a lot of looks, never actually made the pass. Now I would bet that had that been 2007, Lewis would have slung it up the inside or solf Massa a dummy and made a pass. But not any more. He knows that if he tries that, and he touches, he will get a penalty, and the full force of the media.

Basically, I think Lewis has matured, and started to think more about his driving and what he is doing, and in doing so has lost the 'wing and a prayer' flair and nothing to loose attitude that made him great to watch.

Lewis was a better driver when he was immature.

And the JB point I mentioned earlier. I am finding myself agreeing with the people who say this has been his best year ever, even better than 2009. JB is going the other way, in that become a more 'grown up' driver has made him better.
 
Or the press attention over MAssa/LH put him off a pass?
Since 2009 he hasn't been in anything thats been near the number 1 car. This seasons was the best but still off the RB pace.

He needs his dad to manage him again. try and keep him out of the papers.
 
Skeeter said:
The trouble is F1 has now developed a culture of any minor touch gets a massive penalty, so the rewards of making a half chance into an overtake are outweighed by the risk of a penalty if it goes wrong. And I think this is where he has suffered most.

For example, look at India this year. Hamilton went for a gap at a point in the track not regarded as an overtaking spot. a few years back, people were praising him for that exact reason, going for the half chance and making it work. It was the reaosn everyone raved about him, he was a real race going for the gap. The new Senna, etc etc etc. However, now, when he makes a move like that, suddenly everyone is on at him for 'stupid' moves and going for an overtake at somewhere where it isnt considered an overtaking spot. The exact reason people priased him a few years back is now their reason to slate him.

I think F1 as it currently stands does not suit Lewis' driving style. Take yesterdays race. He was behind Massa for quite a while, and while taking a lot of looks, never actually made the pass. Now I would bet that had that been 2007, Lewis would have slung it up the inside or solf Massa a dummy and made a pass. But not any more. He knows that if he tries that, and he touches, he will get a penalty, and the full force of the media.
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I think its more of the case that previously those types of overtakes worked for him but lately its more a spate of accidents that happen, so the fickle racing public more expect an incident rather than an actual pass, so when it does lead to an accident it just vindicates/concretes their (and tbh my) mentality.

A clean pass is never going to lead to a penalty, whereas those half chances LH goes for might - it does seem to lead to poor judgement and indecisiveness and ultimately lack of confidence (him sitting behind MSC or FM for countless laps, while JB just shrugs them aside in the same machinery)...

That said I dont agree with the current stewards situation where consistency could be better achieved by having the same race stewards - I dont understand why this cant be reasonably achieved by the FIA.
Skeeter said:
Basically, I think Lewis has matured, and started to think more about his driving and what he is doing, and in doing so has lost the 'wing and a prayer' flair and nothing to loose attitude that made him great to watch.

Lewis was a better driver when he was immature.
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I dont think LH has matured, hes just aged and I honestly cant see where hes added to/improved his abilities since his WDC and thats now caught up with him, as (rightly or wrongly) F1 now just isnt only about a fast lap or an overtake but overall race management.

In all honesty thats the thing that disappoints me the most about LH, he has a limited number of tools at his disposal (ones though he excels in - think hes still the fastest one lap driver out there), but seemingly made little or no attempt to add to them to make him a far more complete driver (why I still consider him a racer). People wonder why the McLaren is behind the pace at the start of the season the last few years, when youve got someone like LH as the main development driver its not hard to see why thats been happening...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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MooMoo444 said:
Lewis reminds me of Montoya, great driver but a bit reckless and surrounded by controversy.
ps3ud0 said:
The mad thing is that for a lot of people what Montoya did was acceptable and put down to his latin roots (just like how FA is portrayed) - perhaps LH being British hasnt helped him...
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Yeah, I can see the similarity to Montoya. The difference for me is that when Montoya turned up, he was already a 1999 CART champion (in his rookie year) and Indy 500 winner. His speed etc. was never in doubt, which did a lot to excuse his inconsistency.
 
I think its unfair to say that LH has affected the cars development. I doubt very much he had any input in things like the octopus exhaust or the F duct, for example.

I agree about the managment thing. Lewis' best races and seasons have been where has had been rather blinkered, and just got in the car and driven it quickly. Becoming a more 'complete' driver in that he is aware more of what is going on around him, and the impact his driving and behaviour have on his environment has hindered him. But at the end of the day, he is only doing what people were saying he should. People said he should grow up and stop being a narrow minded kid, so he did. But now it turns out that being a narrow minded kid was what made him good.

We need the narrow minded, racing obsessed child back. The one who didn't know or care about what was going on around him, and just wanted to race fast cars all day. He needs a management team that can provide him with that atmosphere (his dad), and a team who will allow him to behave like that (something I don't think McLaren can offer), and he will be back.

McLaren don't want a mildly hyperactive kid who only wants to drive cars and doesn't care about anything else. McLaren want a complete driver who is also a PR machine who can handle the entire environment around them without support, while also driving at the top of their game. McLaren want Jenson Button.
 
Skeeter said:
McLaren don't want a mildly hyperactive kid who only wants to drive cars and doesn't care about anything else. McLaren want a complete driver who is also a PR machine who can handle the entire environment around them without support, while also driving at the top of their game. McLaren want Jenson Button.
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I don't agree that Hamilton is wrong for Mclaren - he wins races and that's ultimately what they are paid to do. It's not like he's not doing PR appointments and from a marketing pov he has a lot of appeal.

I agree that Button is a very good match though, when Whitmarsh and Button have appeared on the F1 forum there's been a few times I've thought Whitmarsh was about to kiss him.
 
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