Whilst you are both absolutely 100% correct (and agree with you)....
... but you must be new to the world of Formula 1
Brazilian Grand Prix 2012, São Paulo - Race 20/20
- Thread starter Duke
- Start date
Whilst you are both absolutely 100% correct (and agree with you)....
... but you must be new to the world of Formula 1
I'm pretty certain thats the exact bit of footage being used by Ferrari.
It doesn't include the key bit of information about the marshal post at the end of the pit exit though, the picture is far to poor quality to make out. The FIA will have the records of what was going on though.
The flag was green the lap before (when Vettel passed a Marussia down that straight) and DRS was active, which it shouldn't be if the DRS zone is in a yellow flag area, so all indicators are that there was a green flag at that exact point, but as yet there is no video evidence.
The problem is that Vettels dashboard shows yellow flag status up until after he passes the green flag... My guess is that's what Ferrari are going to pin their hopes and case on.
The plot thickens!
My 2 cents:
Yes, the overtake was under yellow flags.
However, there is clearly a green light zone coming up and Vettel is probably going to attempt a pass into the corner which he's perfectly allowed to do. It looks like the Toro Rosso backs off quite a lot to let him past but does so right at the very end of the yellow zone - there can only be about 50 yards between the overtake and the start of the green zone. I can't see how Vettel's supposed to slow down accordingly obviously not knowing the STR was going to do that, sit alongside him for 50 yards and then pass. For all that to happen is almost impossible. A lot of people saying at 10:29 on the video there's a marshal waving a green flag too, but I can't see it.
MilanoChris you've blatantly been scouring youtube endlessly since Sunday you bitter sod
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As far as I can tell from reading the details on the system the lights on the dash are triggered by the electronic marshal posts with lights around the track. There are not lights at every marshal posts, so while the green light at the end of the straight is the first green electronic point he passed, and therefore the point the lights on his dash goes off, it may not have been the first green flag he passed. There could have been a green flag at the marshal post at the end of the pit exit that would not have been a trigger point for the dash lights to go out.
Flags over-rule the lights. If there was a green flag, all is ok, and so far there is quite a lot (although non of it conclusive) of evidence to suggest there was a green flag.
If you look at the replay vettel uses a bit of Kers before he pulls out alongside.
So whether the TR backed off or not, is probably beside the point since vettel showed intention to overtake by using that bit of Kers. He actually didn't use much of it though (probably realised "ah a toro rosso, one of ours and will pull over for me."
It could be quite ironic that this very act of "letting the red bulls past" could be red bulls undoing.
So whether the TR backed off or not, is probably beside the point since vettel showed intention to overtake by using that bit of Kers. He actually didn't use much of it though (probably realised "ah a toro rosso, one of ours and will pull over for me."
It could be quite ironic that this very act of "letting the red bulls past" could be red bulls undoing.
But if it wasn't the first green flag that he passed. Why were the yellow lights on his dash if he had passes another green flag point earlier on before the end of the straight?
I'd imagine it's electronic - programmed to show up when they enter the zones on the track if there's a light on display but the marshal's flags over-rule them. The marshals aren't at the same points as the lights. They might be ok to race on the straight and the yellow zone is at the start of turn 3 but from the start of the straight it's under green-flag conditions. If there's no light until the end of the straight the marshals are there to let them know they're actually ok to race from that specific point.
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Because (again, from what I can tell) only the electronic marshal points are the triggers for the lights on the dash. The point at the end of the pits is not electronic, so a green flag there would not have turned the lights off.
To be clear, the yellow flag zone ends when the driver passes the first green flag or light. The lights on his dash are an aid, but do not themselves define the yellow flag zones (theres quite a visible delay in them anyway).
What makes you think this? I'd have thought Ferrari would have all the feeds of all the drivers available to them already without having to rely on fan based analysis.
[serious business]
Lol, quite sad I know, but hopefully should show my point and how it all hinges on one key bit of information we (as of yet) don't have.
These are the marshal points around the track. Green is marshal posts, yellow are the electronic marshal lights.
Vettels pass on the Toro Rosso happened between points B and C on the above.
Point A was yellow. You can clearly see the yellow light on the on board video. Point C was green, again easily visible.
Using the information on the EM Motorsport website (the suppliers of the electronic marshalling system) it suggests that the lights on the dash are controlled by the electronic marshalling points, so points A and C in this instance. As A was yellow and C was the first green electronic point, the lights on the dash will obviously have been on all down that straight, which we can clearly see.
The lights on the dash and the lights on the circuits are just aids however. The flags are still the overruling marshalling signal.
They key point is that if the marshal at point B was displaying a green flag on lap 4 when Vettel overtook the TR between points B and C then he will have already passed the first green flag or light and be out of the yellow flag zone, regardless of what his dash said, and overtaking is allowed. If however the marshal at point B was displaying a yellow flag then the first green flag or light that Vettel passed is at point C, after the overtake, and the overtake is illegal. Green flag, yellow flag zone ends at point B, no green flag, yellow flag zone ends at point C.
It is impossible to judge what is happening at that marshal point from the onboard video alone (belive me, I've tried
). However, there is video showing the marshal change from a yellow flag to a green flag at that post B on lap 3, the lap before the overtake. Also DRS is enabled on lap 3, and the straight between points B and C is the DRS zone, and the FIA disable DRS if its in a yellow flag zone. IIRC the caption comes up on the live TV feed to say DRS is enabled at almost the exact time the yellow flag is withdrawn and replaced with a green one. So it seems to suggest there may have been a green flag there on lap 4.
This is the point that needs clarification, and as yet there isn't anything concrete to say yes or no. However there does seem to be more evidence to suggest there was a green flag than there wasn't, for the time being.
I really hope the FIA clarify this unquestionably. A picture from a fan would be good
Lol, quite sad I know, but hopefully should show my point and how it all hinges on one key bit of information we (as of yet) don't have.
These are the marshal points around the track. Green is marshal posts, yellow are the electronic marshal lights.
Vettels pass on the Toro Rosso happened between points B and C on the above.
Point A was yellow. You can clearly see the yellow light on the on board video. Point C was green, again easily visible.
Using the information on the EM Motorsport website (the suppliers of the electronic marshalling system) it suggests that the lights on the dash are controlled by the electronic marshalling points, so points A and C in this instance. As A was yellow and C was the first green electronic point, the lights on the dash will obviously have been on all down that straight, which we can clearly see.
The lights on the dash and the lights on the circuits are just aids however. The flags are still the overruling marshalling signal.
They key point is that if the marshal at point B was displaying a green flag on lap 4 when Vettel overtook the TR between points B and C then he will have already passed the first green flag or light and be out of the yellow flag zone, regardless of what his dash said, and overtaking is allowed. If however the marshal at point B was displaying a yellow flag then the first green flag or light that Vettel passed is at point C, after the overtake, and the overtake is illegal. Green flag, yellow flag zone ends at point B, no green flag, yellow flag zone ends at point C.
It is impossible to judge what is happening at that marshal point from the onboard video alone (belive me, I've tried
). However, there is video showing the marshal change from a yellow flag to a green flag at that post B on lap 3, the lap before the overtake. Also DRS is enabled on lap 3, and the straight between points B and C is the DRS zone, and the FIA disable DRS if its in a yellow flag zone. IIRC the caption comes up on the live TV feed to say DRS is enabled at almost the exact time the yellow flag is withdrawn and replaced with a green one. So it seems to suggest there may have been a green flag there on lap 4.This is the point that needs clarification, and as yet there isn't anything concrete to say yes or no. However there does seem to be more evidence to suggest there was a green flag than there wasn't, for the time being.
I really hope the FIA clarify this unquestionably. A picture from a fan would be good
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The problem, and I can see Ferrari's point, is that that screen capture comes from lap 3. Vettel ovetook the TR on lap 4, and at that time the live TV feed was showing a replay of the start, so we don't see it. While it suggests there was a green flag there on lap 4, we as yet have no proof, and its this doubt that Ferrari (if they appeal) will run with.