Brazilian Grand Prix 2012, São Paulo - Race 20/20

Skeeter said:
Also DRS is enabled on lap 3, and the straight between points B and C is the DRS zone, and the FIA disable DRS if its in a yellow flag zone.
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Didn't they enable DRS immediately after the first safety car rather than waiting the usual few laps? I remember MB and DCr mention it on Sky commentary. Did anyone work out why they did this, when every other time this year they waited?
If this was an error, then who knows how many other errors/weird decisions they made ;)
 
el_dazza said:
I'd just edited to note that, I've only just got in from work and I'm tired ok :p
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Ha, no worries. I spent most of last night posting with confidence that Vettel overtook the TR on lap 3, before then watching it on iPlayer and realising I was talking rubbish :p

I think Ferrari are going to want to be 110% positive before actually appealing though, as appealing and then getting turned down is going to reflect badly on them. I genuinely think the key piece of information lies on a fans camera somewhere yet to be uploaded to the internet :)
 
El_Watcher said:
Didn't they enable DRS immediately after the first safety car rather than waiting the usual few laps? I remember MB and DCr mention it on Sky commentary. Did anyone work out why they did this, when every other time this year they waited?
If this was an error, then who knows how many other errors/weird decisions they made ;)
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Yeah they did, and Sky did pick up on it. They enabled it 1 lap after the SC pulled in instead of the usual 2.
 
Skeeter said:
Yeah they did, and Sky did pick up on it. They enabled it 1 lap after the SC pulled in instead of the usual 2.
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Are you sure or just going on Sky displaying it on screen, because we were watching it, saw them race down the straight but, didn't no one have DRS open down the straight anyway?


Anyway as others have said, a season being decided on a potential flag screw up is daft, not least because he absolutely swipped Senna off track, and should have been penalised for that. The video's show so clearly how far Senna was and how sharply Vettel turns across him.

Honestly Vettel deserved to ruin his car from that error and that would have decided the title on the day without all the hassle. Can't believe how lucky he got.
 
Skeeter said:
They key point is that if the marshal at point B was displaying a green flag on lap 4 when Vettel overtook the TR between points B and C then he will have already passed the first green flag or light and be out of the yellow flag zone, regardless of what his dash said, and overtaking is allowed. If however the marshal at point B was displaying a yellow flag then the first green flag or light that Vettel passed is at point C, after the overtake, and the overtake is illegal. Green flag, yellow flag zone ends at point B, no green flag, yellow flag zone ends at point C.

It is impossible to judge what is happening at that marshal point from the onboard video alone (belive me, I've tried :p). However, there is video showing the marshal change from a yellow flag to a green flag at that post B on lap 3, the lap before the overtake. Also DRS is enabled on lap 3, and the straight between points B and C is the DRS zone, and the FIA disable DRS if its in a yellow flag zone. IIRC the caption comes up on the live TV feed to say DRS is enabled at almost the exact time the yellow flag is withdrawn and replaced with a green one. So it seems to suggest there may have been a green flag there on lap 4.

This is the point that needs clarification, and as yet there isn't anything concrete to say yes or no. However there does seem to be more evidence to suggest there was a green flag than there wasn't, for the time being.

I really hope the FIA clarify this unquestionably. A picture from a fan would be good :)
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Weirdly, the box looks empty when watching the onboard footage....

ok, so this looks clearer and green...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ku979qCzAWA
 
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Hows this for a curve ball?


20 seconds in, lap 3, the electronic lights at point A on my picture above are actually green, and the dash lights go out after passing it too. This is before he gets to the marshal post at point B. The light at the end of the straight (point C) are also green.

So the lights at point A changed from green to yellow between lap 3 and lap 4, the big question is did the flag at point B change from green to yellow too...
 
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Skeeter said:
I think Ferrari are going to want to be 110% positive before actually appealing though, as appealing and then getting turned down is going to reflect badly on them. I genuinely think the key piece of information lies on a fans camera somewhere yet to be uploaded to the internet :)
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I don't think they even need camera footage do they?
Presumably if there is suspicion enough to warrant it, the FIA can presumably demand the teams involved hand over their telemetry data, which would show what each driver was doing and their exact positions on the circuit. The FIA presumably must also have a fair bit of data themselves.

Its interesting that Ferrari's standpoint has changed quite significantly since directly after the race. Ted Kravitz' interview seemed to suggest that they thought everything was totally above board and they wouldn't be lodging an appeal.

Perhaps Alonso watched the race back and felt quite hard done by, no doubt there must have been thousands of people pointing it out to him and the team.
 
Its got nothing to do with the telemetry. Its 100% about proving wether the flag being held out by the marshal at point B was green or yellow. The FIA should have the command sent to that post, but that's still no proof as to what colour was actually being shown, they need a picture of it.

For reference, right at the end of this clip (2:33) Alonso passes that same post with a clearly visible (even on the shoddy image quality) yellow flag being held out.


Having seen that the onboard from Vettel's doesn't look like there is a yellow there. But again, not conclusive.

Also, side point, I love that overtake. I can imagine him going "yoink" inside his helmet :D
 
Tenzo said:
Weirdly, the box looks empty when watching the onboard footage....

ok, so this looks clearer and green...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ku979qCzAWA
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Ah, nice find. Its the right lap as the main feed is showing the replay of the opening lap, and the light right at the start is yellow (its green the lap before when he passes the Marussia).

Compared to the Alonso vid that definitely looks green (it isn't yellow, thats 'for sure' :D).
 
Hmm, I seem to have been confused here, the video on the BBC website is different to what I thought was the yellow flag incident in the race which Sky spotted and Ferrari said was fine.

It was his overtake on Kamui:


So the actual incident under investigation now was from lap 4 so is a totally different one.
 
Nexus said:
Hmm, I seem to have been confused here, the video on the BBC website is different to what I thought was the yellow flag incident in the race which Sky spotted and Ferrari said was fine.

So the actual incident under investigation now was from lap 4 so is a totally different one.
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That one was clarified as the yellow/red slippery track light. If it was yellow it would have come up automatically on his dash as well and it doesn't. FIA themselves said that one was absolutely fine.
 
There are actually 3 claimed yellow flag passes. That one on Kamui, one on lap 2 on a HRT going into turn 2, and the one on the Toro Rosso down the back straight on lap 4.

The Kamui and the HRT one are both fine (the former being the slippery surface flag, the latter being done (just) before the start of the yellow flag zone). The only one still in question is the Toro Rosso one, and it looks like that might be done and dusted too, although its a lot less clear cut.

I think the FIA need to prove this last one either way for the fans, regardless of wether Ferrari protest. Other wise we will just get years of people claiming Vettel cheated his way to the title.
 
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Senna gonna get a drive for TR for not shouting loudly up and down the pit lane that Vettel clearly took him out?

I still don't get it, for me he deserved a penalty for Senna smack, full stop BUT had he got that or the yellow flag pass penalty(if its deserved) DURING the race, frankly they'd likely not have effected the result, of course, anything can happen, being two places further back during a safety car can mean restarting behind someone who makes a mistake and takes you out. Because of the time of both incidents, and the distance from the end, and the safety cars inbetween, and simply the speed of the car vs other worse cars, there is nothing to say he wouldn't have gotten the place back.

Hell, even if he'd had a drive through for a yellow flag overtake and potentially the Senna one, one safety car, he's on the back of everyone else, quite a few cars went past and he'd have found his way through the slower guys with ease, + they had Mark to drop back if really required.

Adding a penalty to the end of a race because they couldn't be arsed to do it at the time, seems daft and really more unfair.

Meh, penalties really need to all be given post race(with potentially an rule that says if the race is finished under safety car, the time differences on the lap before the safety car are used to determine final position), or all done within 5 laps without this BS "we'll investigate it after the race" for some things, and during for others.
 
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