Britain's Defences

The PRC has a per capita (1000) active personnel figure of 1.7, The UK has a per capita (1000) of 2.9. Total per capita (including reserve) PRC is 2.6 (/1000) and the UK is 6.1 (/1000). Which makes our per capita expenditure on each member of the armed forces superior to that of the PRC.

But as I said previous, China has not got sufficient power projection of it's armed forces to threaten the UK in any significant way.
True, but it doesn't change the personnel per capita (of the RoC). I stated the original claim that our personnel per capita was higher than PRCs because I knew it to be true, you needn't clarify :p

Additionally, comparing the per capita (personnel) military expenditure at the exchange rate (which I assume it is) of a military from a poor country with a large amount of personnel to one with from a rich country with a small amount, overlooks the reduced cost of supporting each unit of that larger army. It won't change the outcome, but the gap isn't as wide as it appears.
 
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True, but it doesn't change the personnel per capita (of the RoC). I stated the original claim that our personnel per capita was higher than PRCs because I knew it to be true, you needn't clarify :p

Lol, I hadn't realised that MrLOL had referenced the Republic of China by mistake (I didn't read the link). I was disagreeing with MrLOL, not confirming your original statement as such.:p

Additionally, comparing the per capita (personnel) military expenditure at the exchange rate (which I assume it is) of a military with a large amount of personnel to one with a small amount, overlooks the reduced cost of supporting each unit of that larger army. It won't change the outcome, but the gap isn't as wide as it appears.

I agree, but it is significant, especially in regard to our vastly superior ability to project power globally compared to that of the PRC.
 
Lol, I hadn't realised that MrLOL had referenced the Republic of China by mistake (I didn't read the link). I was disagreeing with MrLOL, not confirming your original statement as such.:p



I agree, but it is significant, especially in regard to our vastly superior ability to project power globally compared to that of the PRC.
It's a fact that our ability to project power is greater than PRCs, but I'm not sure the relation between personnel and expenditure explains it. I think if you could split UK and PRC military expenditure by domestic and imports, and then PPP the domestic, it would be quite a different situation.

I think China's inability to project power comes from it trying to be strong in all areas, and as such buying/building lots of cheaper submarines/destroyers/fighters/bombers/missiles that aren't all that technologically advanced. Additionally, they have probably never invested in the supply chain in quite the way we have (because projecting global power isn't their foreign policy aim) - looking at some rough Google'd numbers, 1 in 7 members of our forces are in logistics roles. I suspect the ratio is far far lower in the PLA.

I'm of the opinion that if China wanted to, it probably could without spending any more money, it would just have to make the decision to change the dynamic of it's forces.
 
It's a fact that our ability to project power is greater than PRCs, but I'm not sure the relation between personnel and expenditure explains it. I think if you could split UK and PRC military expenditure by domestic and imports, and then PPP the domestic, it would be quite a different situation.

I think China's inability to project power comes from it trying to be strong in all areas, and as such buying/building lots of cheaper submarines/destroyers/fighters/bombers/missiles that aren't all that technologically advanced. Additionally, they have probably never invested in the supply chain in quite the way we have (because projecting global power isn't their foreign policy aim) - looking at some rough Google'd numbers, 1 in 7 members of our forces are in logistics roles.

I'm of the opinion that if China wanted to, it probably could without spending any more money, it would just have to make the decision to change the dynamic of it's forces.

Quite true. as for the logistical and support numbers in relation to active soldiers it is closer to 1 in 10 (while I was serving anyway).

China could indeed change the dynamic of it's forces, I don't agree that it would not increase their expenditure however at least in the short term. To expand it's navy into a real blue-water navy capable of competing with the EU or NATO, the USA or even the UK on it's own would require serious investment in Aircraft Carriers and the relevant support ships and Aircraft required. Coincidently there has been recent talk in China of acquiring an Aircraft Carrier for it's navy.

What is definite is that if China did make a concerted effort to create a more global dynamic for it's forces then a lot of it's neighbours, especially Russia and Japan would get a little jittery and in turn the USA and Europe also. Although on the other hand, the acquisition of an Aircraft Carrier would allow China to participate in securing commercial shipping lanes and with increased co-operation would make the world a safer place. Lets remember that China, the US and EU are pretty much economically interdependent and the tensions between China and the US are largely superfluous to world security.

In the former scenario though, we could prospectively be looking at another arms race, albeit a conventional one.
 
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Following on from what someone mention earlier (why would anyone want the UK), i would ask if anyone could invade China. With china out of the picture, any country depending on china for arms or resources would crumble if invaded, and whoever occupies china has its massive swaves of resources and land mass.

Leaveing just the USA and Russia as the most powerfull nations on the planet...any if they could get along.. who knows maybe a brighter future ahead.


My 2c anyways:p
 
The last war the UK fought alone in was The Falklands War.

If China declared war on the UK and supposing their war aims would be to annex us (which is very random and unlikely) all of Europe, the U.S. and who knows who else would declare war on China in return... wars of agression aren't allowed anymore.

If it was just China versus the U.K. with no other countries involved at all (unlikely). Well you have the sheer distance from China to the UK which would make things difficult for them. They have sheer manpower... we have better trained troops and better technology and mobility. There's no way to tell easily, there's no comparison for such an invasion in history or in the modern era so there's not really an easy answer.
 
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In a conventional hot war with just us and China? No. They have numbers, scale, and lines of production on their side.

Yeah they've got lots of troops but they'd need to get them to the UK and supply them etc.... I don't think they'd be particularly successful in their invasion and that's even if we ignore the fact the UK is in NATO.

Frankly though the question is a bit ridicules.
 
Why China... ? It doesn't have the capacity for launching a large scale invasion just shy of half way round the world. As someone mentioned if it took a naval route it would suffer months of onslaught from aircraft we have positioned all over the place, not to mention we have a couple of subs lurking in the Indian Ocean no doubt. We would also be picking up information from the Americans too who are known to operate submarines extensively across the Yellow Sea.

Russia is a much more credible force to try and invade and geographically and politically more motivated toward making this happen.
 
And ironically, an incredibly superficial one at that.

Eep, perhaps I should have justified my response a little more.


WMDs exist as a deterrent. As soon as that deterrent has failed, we enter into the realms of MAD. If China invaded, it would be on terms of a conventional war, otherwise it wouldn't be an invasion but genocide. It's superficial because you assume that the statement is enough, when the subject clearly goes far deeper. We're talking geo-politics, weapons acquisition, foreign policy, different modes of warefare, etc.
[Emphasis mine]

This is assuming the deterrent fails. If it does so you are entirely right and the rest of the speculation within the thread is valid. I think though that the deterrent is enough to hold - especially under such a circumstance as a foreign state mounting a full on invasion against our sovereignty.

There are essentially four things we have to consider in the argument;

Is the threat credible enough to warrant nuclear retaliation? Yes. It can be assumed that if an attack is imminent and we do not use them then the outcome would not favour us.

Does retaining our sovereignty outweigh the lives of millions of Chinese citizens? Again yes. In an anarchic international system all states primary goals is survival. Such an extreme threat to the state validates the extemity of its counter attack.

How badly would Britains international image suffer in response to the above? There would have course be negative consequences afterwards politically and economically, however I believe that under the assumptions of the scenario they would not deter the decision away from the use of nuclear weapons.

And if China act as a rational agent in this scenario would she not be able to factor these considerations into her decision to launch a 'conventional' war? It is rational to assume that after finding these conclusions China would not proceed with this kind of military invasion.

I hope this helps further explain the much shorter statement I put before. But you are right to mention different modes of warefare. It is much more likely that if any conflict with China were to occur it would be via the realms of low politics (through mediums like the internet, aggressive trade tarrifs, protectionism, commercial interests and frequent vetoing within the UN.)
 
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They'd have a pretty hard time, I'd just be standing on brighton peer throwing my own excrement at all the cute little chinamen.
 
I think this is what will happen.

China : oi britain yo mum ugly
UK : What you say?
China : yo momma so ugly i r invade.

USA/EU/Nato : What you talking bout willis?

Now india and china don't have the best relationship so i see those guys duking it out with massive losses never before seen on such a scale.

China will instruct North korea to attack South korea due to them being allies with USA and theres lots of US troops there.

Japan will declare war on china as the last thing japan wants is a more dominant china as they hate each other + all the American bases in japan.

China invades taiwan.

now the only country i'm not sure about is russia. Do they put there differences aside and join the allies or do they make a pact with china and start going after eastern Europe again.
 
I can see us having at the very least a 2:1 kill ratio over them in the event of an attempted invasion.

We had about that ratio in the falklands war and we were the aggressors.
+ 4 million more if china needs to call upon them

if we tried that people would be to busy fleeing the country or watching jeremy kyle/eastenders
 
I think this is what will happen.

China : oi britain yo mum ugly
UK : What you say?
China : yo momma so ugly i r invade.

USA/EU/Nato : What you talking bout willis?

Now india and china don't have the best relationship so i see those guys duking it out with massive losses never before seen on such a scale.

HAHA this made me [email protected]

Very true about India and China relations, lets not forget the tensions surrounding the sheltering and adopted home of the Dalai Lama and the Sino-Indian war. Relations have gradually improved and are probably the best they have ever been at this moment in time (relatively speaking) largely I would suspect as a result of the two countries economic implications on both sides. Tibet is still a high tension point. As for where Russia fits in. India has good relations with both Russia and in more recent years with the States and (Israel) and significant military hardware sales have been proposed. In all honesty China is the new superpower of the world, if they decided to invade territory in a conventional war in Asia there is very little anyone could do. India with the backing of the US/Israel and importantly Russia would be the only hurdle.
 
There's no imminent war between great powers coming along. The EU has quite successfully stopped the great 'balance of power' tensions in Europe and at the moment NATO has 70% of world military spending so it'd be pretty suicidal to go to war with any NATO country. It will not change in the near future.
 
What chance have we got if say a big country like China wanted to invade?
(using China as an example) Would we be able to protect our little 'vulnerable' island?

Can I highlight one word in the OP? "Wanted"...

Why would any country want to invade us?
 
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