Canadian Grand Prix 2012, Montréal - Race 7/20

poor show from button yet again, he was lucky to get into Q3.

top lap from vettel, think he will do much of what we saw last year and just drive away.

hopefully hamilton has a better setup with a heavy fuel and mclaren can pull of an actual strategy without any mistakes.

mclarens got more wing angle so maybe better traction out of the corners will come in useful but i saw hamilton bouncing of the limiter on the long straight.
 
Its as if their car setup decisions have to go through the same committee decision process as their strategy, meaning there is a 6 week delay on every minor adjustment.

Unfortunately, in a corporate environment, this is usually how things work. There is probably a procedure for everything which employees are duty-bound to follow and no employee dare deviate from the said procedure, in case they end up in a disciplinary hearing. Off-the-cuff decisions are not usually made in that team.

The last driver to truly do as he pleased was Senna, but that was 20 years ago.

I remember when Button arrived, he initially was making decisions on strategy and soon after he was also McLarenised and allowed all decisions to be made by the relevant departments.

You only have to listen to the guys who man the McLaren radios. They may as well have Apple's Siri relaying messages to the drivers. They sound like robots.

It wouldn't surprise me if if McLaren had a procedure on what to do if someone farts.
 
Not BBC being too stuffed due to the unneeded 900million move to Salford to be able to follow through on the contract that they signed?

I read that Salford is so dangerous that the BBC have to hire body guards to escort certain TV personalities, when they enter the vicinity of the BBC building. And it's costing a fair bit.
 
So, lets have some predictions now.
Considering that McLaren have had better qualifying pace than race pace, my prediction for tomorrow is:

1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Hamilton

On the subject of the title race, I think its fair to say that RBR currently have have the best race car - fastest in Monaco, fastest in Canada. With this in mind I think the title race is now between Alonso and Vettel. To win the title Hamilton will need a faster car than the Ferrari and RBR car, which I'm not sure that McLaren can deliver.

Lets hope we have good race tomorrow, because Monaco was a procession which even DRS could not prevent.

So, lets hear some predictions for tomorrow, gents.
 
I don't think it's quite as simple as the new brakes affecting JB's performance; although I haven't checked to see if there's any corrolation between the new brakes being installed and his results dropping off.

If anything, the advantage McLaren had at the start of the season may have flattered him somewhat.

I really hope that either Hamilton has better race pace than in recent races, and/or McLaren get the tactics right. Now that RBR and Ferrari appear to have caught them up (and potentially overtaken them) in the development race, it seems their inability to capitalise on there early advantage is really going to cost them.

It also puts paid to the myth that they are the in-season development masters. It's just appeared that way because, recently, they've started the season so far behind the other top teams.

Most intersting for me is that despite RBR having to remove their hole, they aren't struggling with quali pace, let's see if affects their race pace...
 
So, lets have some predictions now.
Considering that McLaren have had better qualifying pace than race pace, my prediction for tomorrow is:

1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Hamilton

On the subject of the title race, I think its fair to say that RBR currently have have the best race car - fastest in Monaco, fastest in Canada. With this in mind I think the title race is now between Alonso and Vettel. To win the title Hamilton will need a faster car than the Ferrari and RBR car, which I'm not sure that McLaren can deliver.

Lets hope we have good race tomorrow, because Monaco was a procession which even DRS could not prevent.

So, lets hear some predictions for tomorrow, gents.

I think your pretty much spot on. Any car advantage that McLaren have is now gone, and rather than take advantage of it while they had it, they have ended up not leading either title race.

The race is now between Vettels pure pace, and Alonsos race ability. And given how Alonso has done so far this year, if I were Vettel I would be worried.

As much as I absolutely hate the guy, Alonso is my current tip for the title. He's driving to a level I haven't seen from him since 2006, maybe even ever.
 
I think your pretty much spot on. Any car advantage that McLaren have is now gone, and rather than take advantage of it while they had it, they have ended up not leading either title race.

The race is now between Vettels pure pace, and Alonsos race ability. And given how Alonso has done so far this year, if I were Vettel I would be worried.

As much as I absolutely hate the guy, Alonso is my current tip for the title. He's driving to a level I haven't seen from him since 2006, maybe even ever.

Would have to agree with all of this, McLaren have messed this year up. Unless they can find some serious pace they are in trouble.

Between Vettel and Alonso it will be close, but I reckon it will depend on the car development. We have seen what RB can do...it really is RB strategy/development against the raw race pace of Alonso (and his wingman).
 
Unfortunately, in a corporate environment, this is usually how things work. There is probably a procedure for everything which employees are duty-bound to follow and no employee dare deviate from the said procedure, in case they end up in a disciplinary hearing. Off-the-cuff decisions are not usually made in that team.

The last driver to truly do as he pleased was Senna, but that was 20 years ago.

I remember when Button arrived, he initially was making decisions on strategy and soon after he was also McLarenised and allowed all decisions to be made by the relevant departments.

You only have to listen to the guys who man the McLaren radios. They may as well have Apple's Siri relaying messages to the drivers. They sound like robots.

It wouldn't surprise me if if McLaren had a procedure on what to do if someone farts.


Yet you lot (not you in particular) are the guys who say McLaren develop their car faster than anyone else. Which is something i've always called BS on.

Now you're saying they are slow to make decisions, which by it's very nature would hamper development.

They've only looked like they develop quickly in the past because the car has been such as dog. It's easier to find time in a poor package than it is a lead car. Just look at Ferrari this season.

:p

Alonso for the win, Vettel 2nd.
 
...it really is RB strategy/development against the raw race pace of Alonso (and his wingman).

Wingman? He only ever "moved over" once, to help Alonso score more points. Other than that, he has been no assistance to Alonso whatsoever in 40-odd races.
 
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Do people think button is showing we're the mclaren car is at or is button really struggling?

I'm going to predict

Alonso
Vettel
Hamilton

But i want

Hamilton
Rosberg
Webber
 
They've only looked like they develop quickly in the past because the car has been such as dog. It's easier to find time in a poor package than it is a lead car. Just look at Ferrari this season.

Based on the season so far, you could be right. However, give McLaren another few races, to see if they can make progress.
 
Why do people still think Button is having any problems with the car, where was he in Q1 and Q2.

He was ahead of Hamilton but much later in the session and realistically, Hamilton just doing an easy lap. Q2 with both trying, Button was 3/10th's behind Hamilton, the rough same distance he was behind hamilton in most qualifying in the past 2 years. He is exactly the same gap behind Hamilton as he has ALWAYS been, the difference is there used to be either none, or 1-2 cars max in that 3/10th's gap between them, now there is really anything up to 7-8 cars, that is the only difference.

There is nothing wrong with his car, last year and the year before, he was always going to be 3/10th's behind, but that wasn't costing him many if any places, so he had no need to push ultra hard to get that gap down. Now, because that 3/10th's is the equivalent of several cars between them, he's having to push much much harder to close the gap, and in doing so is locking up more often and making more mistakes.

Last year Q1 1-17 was between 1:13.8 and 1:16.3. A 2.5 second difference, this year it was :1.14.6 and 1:15.5, less than 1 second gap.

Q2 1-10 last year was between 1:13.4 and 1:14.5, just over a second gap, this year 1:14.1 and 1:14.6 half a second.

Q3 1:13 and 1:14 last year, a second gap, today roughly a second(ignoring Button not trying). So Q3 hasn't changed but the gaps in Q1/Q2 are huge.

THe most pathetic thing is, if Button had gone 3/10th's slower than Hamilton rather than wuss out, he'd likely have been 4th or 5th.

Button looks worse in Q1 and Q2 because, its MUCH closer this year than last year Q3 spreads out again as the top few stretch their legs a bit more which they don't really bother with before Q3.

Button complains when he's fastest, and slowest, and anywhere in between, if he wins a race you hear him on the radio mention something he had a problem with, he's a complainer, that's it.


Anyway, I can't see a Hamilton win, I don't think the car is good enough, RBR now look simply faster on raw pace and further ahead in race pace, coupled with Mclaren's awful tactics meaning they rarely if ever pit at the right time I just can't see it.

Personally I'd like to see Hamilton, if he can get ahead in the first lap burn those tyres, make a gap and go for a two stopper, I think he can pass people, especially if he's not saving tyres as much, at the very least to see if burning tyres and going faster can be a viable alternate strategy as we've not seen it from the front yet. We've seen people further back try alternate strategy's but it becomes very hard to know if it worked or not as they get held up, etc, etc. I can't see Hamilton having the pace/tyre life to beat Alonso/Vettel on the same strategy, if he can do it on a two stop though, interesting to see.
 
Yet you lot (not you in particular) are the guys who say McLaren develop their car faster than anyone else. Which is something i've always called BS on.

There is plenty of evidence that they have in previous years.

Wingman? He only ever "moved over" once, to help Alonso score more points. Other than that, he has been no assistance to Alonso whatsoever in 40-odd races.

Was that the only time?
 
Red Bull looking fast, credit where credit is due!, they have come through with the upgrade packages at the right time and capitalised. Unlike Mclaren.

Also, did someone mention they saw Hamilton on the limiter in qually? :(

Do they never learn?! He's going to DRS up behind someone, get a tow and be bouncing his way off the limiter unable to pass..
 
Button was 3/10th's behind Hamilton, the rough same distance he was behind hamilton in most qualifying in the past 2 years. He is exactly the same gap behind Hamilton as he has ALWAYS been, the difference is there used to be either none, or 1-2 cars max in that 3/10th's gap between them, now there is really anything up to 7-8 cars, that is the only difference.

Indeed.
And it has always been Button's race pace that has been on part with Hamilton. Judge Button tomorrow on his race pace, not qualifying pace.

I can't see Hamilton having the pace/tyre life to beat Alonso/Vettel on the same strategy, if he can do it on a two stop though, interesting to see.

Indeed.
The problem is that inorder to use a different strategy, the strategist needs "balls". And McLaren's strategists always listen to what the computer says. So if the computer says, "1 stop is fastest", they will always follow that strategy. To use an alternative strategy will need someone at McLaren to take the risk, which no McLaren employee will ever do, as it is against procedure.

McLaren will use the strategy which, on paper/computer, is the fastest. And that strategy will almost certainly be identical to Alonso and Vettel's. What this means is that Hamilton has very little chance of a race win tomorrow.
 
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