Canon 5D MKIII or Nikon D800

[Raymond Lin]

What.. you do head over to HTML, Graphics & Programming and tell them to only talk about graphics, and how they make us feel.. hence your first reply?

Sorry, I meant your first part of your sentence, I don't part edit out someone's posts. I tend to leave it in.

I think the emphasise on 'feeling' explains why you always seem to be emotionally charged about this stuff. Socratic debate and emotions don't tend to mix well. You need to at least be partly detached to remain objective.

I am not emotionally charged.

I am not the one who call people Baffoons Mr Parker.

I am not even debating the subject of numbers, like I said, there is no debate. The conclusion is a forgone one, one that you have stated countless times 18 months ago summer last with your endless links to DXO and whatnot. We know, I don't need to read it again, we all know where it is.

There is no discussion at all about which camera is technically better. There is none.

The discussion is which is a better camera for you. For the person who buys it. That discussion is more about the end user, not the gear.

That is where the discussion is. Each camera does things differently, we know that, the discussion is how they affect you on your work flow.

The tech needs no introduction, it's all over the net. The personal experiences however, are not.

 

[An Exception]

Just pulling you leg.

 

[An Exception]

OK I better update this thread on what I decided, and in the end I got the... Nikon D800E

Firstly can I thank everyone for their feedback and a big thanks An Exception who took time to email me sample photo's of stuff I was looking for.. although in the forum he may come across as favoring Nikon but in the conversations we had he was very fair to both.

No worries bud.
As I said, it will take allot of getting used to. Your muscle memory will keep trying to put the lens on and off the wrong way. The dial will seem confusing and will do exactly opposite of what you want.

You can customise the camera allot though. If someone handed me a default D800 once and I really struggled to even use it due to how much I had configured mine. I have my dials setup, so it's almost like shooting a Canon, the back dial controls the aperture, the front controls the shutter. I also set the directions of the dials to mirror Canons. This made the switch to Nikon allot easier for me personally.

 

[D.P.]

OK I better update this thread on what I decided, and in the end I got the... Nikon D800E

Firstly can I thank everyone for their feedback and a big thanks An Exception who took time to email me sample photo's of stuff I was looking for.. although in the forum he may come across as favoring Nikon but in the conversations we had he was very fair to both.

Anyway i'll explain my decision.. I was lucky enough to be able to play with both Camera's and they were both really good and both offered what I considered to be an upgrade to the 5D MKII. I think in image quality the Nikon is better purely down to the extra MP's however I wasn't going to let that be the deciding factor.. the canon was better at Video however after reflection I only used that feature on the 5DII a couple of times. The AF on the Canon is apparently better but I couldn't tell however the 6FPS was definitely an advantage and the 4 FPS did concern me as that's pretty much what the 5D MKII is. I liked the feel of the 5D MKIII it sat comfortably in the hand, the D800E felt bulkier. Their were controls on both that I found awkward so they cancelled each other out.

One of my major considerations was I wanted to keep my 70-200 2.8L II or get the Nikon equivalent but I expected to loose a fortune on it and my other lens and on that basis I would have kept with Canon.

To my surprise though the Lenses keep their value very well, and there was discounts available on buying a lens with a Nikon and also cash back on them to! The shop gave me prices for my gear and I calculated the difference between buying the 5D MKIII and keeping my present lenses or changing to Nikon with equivalent lenses.. to my surprise it worked out cheaper to change to Nikon and get new lenses! it was only then I made my final decision.

I picked up the D800E, 70-200mm AF-S Nikkor f2.8G ED VR II, 24-120mm f4 G AF-S ED VR (which I wanted as a walkabout) and a 105mm f2.8 G AF-S VR IF ED macro.. I also got thrown in a Grip which apparently will address my FPS concerns.. I still need to get a couple of extra lenses but will pick them up on Friday/Saturday after I've looked into it more.

I hope I've made a good choice, I'm sure there's isn't a wrong choice and tbh I'm hoping the change will be a good thing for me and re-light the fire for photography which at the end of the day is what I wanted.. Tech sheets don't make interesting photo's so I need to get out making the camera work!

All I need to do now is learn how to use the Nikon system and try to remember Lightroom/Photoshop

I look forward to taking part in this part of the forum again !

Good luck with your new camera, I doubt you will regret it.

It is as I said, the Nikon system is now so much cheaper than canon that a canon owner can ditch all their gear, buy bran new Nikon glass and have decent money left over.!


If you are concerned about speed of the d800 remember you can switch fit to the 1.2x crop mode. With a fast card it will do about 5.5FPS producing 24MP that still offer grater ISO and dynamic range than the the 5DMk3. Most of the time you want speed you want reach so it is really an added bonus, the smaller file sizes don't hurt either!

 

[CGrieves]

We know, I don't need to read it again, we all know where it is.

Yes but the OP wanted guidance, regardless of the fact that you, and some others already know.

I find gear talk very useful, because I don't have this almost mythical well of personal experience to base my decisions on. Better to ask, get definitive correct answer, and avoid making the mistakes that others have made to get that experience, no? That's a forum in a nutshell.

If I had been the OP, I'm not sure your first post would have communicated much of the great depth of experience that you undoubtedly have (your photography speaks for itself). It seemed somewhat..... Tired.

 

[D.P.]

Doesn't really matter what you buy when looking at these cameras though as both take very nice photos. It's not like one of them is vastly better than the other so just buy the system that offers you the glass you need. I've shot with more Nikon cameras than canon yet I still fancy the canon lens lineup more than nikon as they do more exotic primes whilst Nikon do probably the best uwa ever made. I've always fancied a 135L as I love the compression effect it gives and the bokeh, whilst being one of the sharpest lenses canon make. Does it justify me moving over to canon though from what I have now? Not really, just GAS

Depending on applications the Nikon 135mm f/2.0 DC is considered the ultimate tele portrait prime. It might loose in raw resolution to the canon 135L in test charts wide open but it is still exceptionally sharp and the control of the Bokeh rendering is pretty much unique.

 

[Rojin]

High ISO DR is much better on the 5D3 of course...

I did price up a D800E, 35, 85 and 70-200 on a grey import site. That would be the same price as what I'd get for what I have now. Albeit that would be giving up a 1Ds2, 7D, 17-35, 28-75, 24-105, 70-200, 35, 50, 85 and two flashes. I've decided I just can't be bothered with the hassle of selling though, it won't make a great deal of difference to my output either if I am realistic

 

[An Exception]

I am not emotionally charged.

I am not the one who call people Baffoons Mr Parker.

The first bit.. if you say so.
The second bit was simply a statement of fact after this thread broke down due to previously stated reasons.

I am not even debating the subject of numbers, like I said, there is no debate. The conclusion is a forgone one, one that you have stated countless times 18 months ago summer last with your endless links to DXO and whatnot. We know, I don't need to read it again, we all know where it is.

Again, this thread isn't for your benefit. I can't stress this enough, it's not about you. The Op came here asking questions. I answered them by how they relate to me and showed Op tangible differences.. that it.. that's all there is to it. If some people make incorrect statements, I'm also going to correct those as well.

As I said last summer, if you don't like said threads. Don't take part. It's really that simple.

 

[D.P.]

High ISO DR is much better on the 5D3 of course...

I did price up a D800E, 35, 85 and 70-200 on a grey import site. That would be the same price as what I'd get for what I have now. Albeit that would be giving up a 1Ds2, 7D, 17-35, 28-75, 24-105, 70-200, 35, 50, 85 and two flashes. I've decided I just can't be bothered with the hassle of selling though, it won't make a great deal of difference to my output either if I am realistic

No, at very high ISO the 5Dmk3 catches up with the d800 and they become pretty equal around ISO6400, but that isn't where most people care about DR. At ISO 12800 the 5Dmk3 is probably slightly better than the d800, but neither image is that useable. People don't seem to realize quite how bit the difference is at base ISO. To put it into perspective if Canon released a brand new FF sensor every 4 years (as is typical), and each sensor had twice the DR if the predeccors then it would take 12 years to catch up. But I the last 10 years canon has barely increased base DR by a measurable amount.


Whther selling canon hear and buying into Nikon eally saves any money obviously depends on hat gear you have and what you want.


But put a D800 and 5Dmk3 in a basket along with a 24-20 and 70-200mm and you can see that buying a complete Nikon setup saves a fortune.

If you wan to add any of the super telephotos the moe y saved will easily pay for an African Safari!

 

[Rojin]

No, at very high ISO the 5Dmk3 catches up with the d800 and they become pretty equal around ISO6400, but that isn't where most people care about DR. At ISO 12800 the 5Dmk3 is probably slightly better than the d800, but neither image is that useable. People don't seem to realize quite how bit the difference is at base ISO. To put it into perspective if Canon released a brand new FF sensor every 4 years (as is typical), and each sensor had twice the DR if the predeccors then it would take 12 years to catch up. But I the last 10 years canon has barely increased base DR by a measurable amount.


Whther selling canon hear and buying into Nikon eally saves any money obviously depends on hat gear you have and what you want.


But put a D800 and 5Dmk3 in a basket along with a 24-20 and 70-200mm and you can see that buying a complete Nikon setup saves a fortune.

If you wan to add any of the super telephotos the moe y saved will easily pay for an African Safari!

5D3 DR is better than the D800 before ISO 3200. You underestimate high ISO shooting, having nice files at 6400 is the only reason I'll upgrade. It's the high ISO performance of the 6D which has turned it's image around from being a dud of a release to a desirable camera.

I don't really care though, the only reason I'd go for the D800 is the resolution. If I needed it that is, I don't need it for the print sizes that I print. I'm much more interested in a sensor size around 24MP with great high ISO performance. Sadly I also want that in a body with great AF so my choices are limited.

 

[D.P.]

5D3 DR is better than the D800 before ISO 3200. You underestimate high ISO shooting, having nice files at 6400 is the only reason I'll upgrade. It's the high ISO performance of the 6D which has turned it's image around from being a dud of a release to a desirable camera.

I don't really care though, the only reason I'd go for the D800 is the resolution. If I needed it that is, I don't need it for the print sizes that I print. I'm much more interested in a sensor size around 24MP with great high ISO performance. Sadly I also want that in a body with great AF so my choices are limited.

I don't want this to turn into a fanboy war but the data doesn't suggest what you are implying regarding DR.

Since everyone hates DXOmark, here is another independnet link that shows the same trends (this guy tests all the cameras himself from copies he is given for testing on DPReview).
http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/Charts/PDR.htm#EOS 5D Mark III,D800

At ISO ISO ~1300 there is a still a slight advantage to the D800, nothing much in it but the D800 stays clearly ahead. Only at ISO 2550 and above are they really matched, the 5d3 never really taking a lead.

Furthermore, once the DR slips much below 7 stops it is very hard to work images in any scene where DR is of importance. One way to look at this is what is the max ISO you can shoot at to maintain a desired image quality and DR:
http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/Charts/PDR_ISO.htm

Lets says you wanted to maintain a modest DR of 8.5 stops (suitable for scenes with a standard contrast, wont leave much latitude for protecting highlights or pulling up shadows but a properly exposed photos in good lighting will work out OK). On the D800 you can shoot at ISO 884, on the 5D3 you would need to shoot at ISO 242. This does show though if you are willing to let IQ slip sufficiently then the D*00 and 5d3 basically equalize at high ISOs as I said. So if you shoot weddings in dark churches with only natural light then the sensor differences are not big except the resolution advantage. If you shoot at more modest ISo for landscape, cityscape, macro, still life etc and you want to maximize IQ then the advantage of the D800 becomes apparent.


PS: Hope you had fun Raymond

 

[Rojin]

LOL, so you choose to ignore DXO when it suits? You crack me up Ultimately I really don't care, if I did I would be constantly changing gear.

 

[D.P.]

LOL, so you choose to ignore DXO when it suits? You crack me up Ultimately I really don't care, if I did I would be constantly changing gear.

I don't I can post DXO mark but some people have an irrational hatred.

DXOmark and the links I provided give almost identical results.
I was going to post DXO data but knew Raymond would shed another tear

 

[An Exception]

I'm quite happy with ISO 6400, even when I underexpose by roughly a stop. So really I'm quite happy with ISO 12800.
Sample File

For the times you are at ISO6400 you are not usually dealing with a high-dynamic range scene imo.

Personally I'm looking for better ISO 25600-51200 or more. There is allot of times where the quality of light is nice, but there is just too little of it. It would be nice not to have to bust out a flash in these scenarios.

 

[Rojin]

I don't I can post DXO mark but some people have an irrational hatred.

DXOmark and the links I provided give almost identical results.
I was going to post DXO data but knew Raymond would shed another tear

It's the reliance on data from DXO that isn't liked. It's a good starting point perhaps but not as valuable as actual real life results (including post processing).

I'm quite happy with ISO 6400, even when I underexpose by roughly a stop. So really I'm quite happy with ISO 12800.
http://www.rhysphotograph.me/Charly_Si_Richards-298.dng

For the times you are at ISO6400 you are not usually dealing with a high-dynamic range scene imo.

Personally I'm looking for better ISO 25600-51200 or more. There is allot of times where the quality of light is nice, but there is just too little of it. It would be nice not to have to bust out a flash in these scenarios.

Depends why you are at 6400, if it's for a shutter speed of 1/60 then yeah you're right. If you're at 1/1000 or higher (sports, bif) then it's nice to have

I think I'm going to try to last at least another year with my current gear, then see where we are then... I may add a lens or two in the meantime though

 

[Raymond Lin]

Lol, you got me wrong, I don't hate DXO, i just don't see the need of constant reference to it. You can post DXO scores but it is meaningless without context.

It is like saying a McLaren can do 200mph. And?

It's just a fact, what is your opinion on it?

How does that translate to real world shooting? How does it affect you. Have you got any personal experiences that helped because of the 5 points DXO advantage over the other camera? Are those 5 points (or whatever it is) noticeable?

We can all look at a number but numbers means nothing without your comments on it. I too can regurgitate some numbers.

1, 205, 4,343,342. 5/7. 3.14. 50%.

Numbers needs context. I am more interested in the context.

 

[An Exception]

Some people find it easy to interpret numbers. They know how it will affect their photography. Others don't, so I rarely link to DXO, but will instead link to pictures/samples that show people what the numbers mean.

The main issue with DXO in these forums whether people will admit it or not, and what another poster touched upon. Is DXO simply gives unfavourable numbers to Canon. It's no coincidence that a number of Canon users are calling DXO the devil and have pitch forks at the ready.

 

[Rojin]

That would be a nice easy answer, but you are ignoring why others don't rely only on numbers. You might like that to be the truth so you can pigeon hole everyone, but I am delighted to disappoint you

 

[D.P.]

I find it easy to work with numbers. I am always constrained by dynamic range in my landscape work. Even at the golden hour (or 15 minutes as it really is) the difference between shadow exposure and the last rays of sun clipping the high snow fields of the Tetons is too much for my current cameras, but a few more stops DR would help tremendously.

I know how much DR there is in the scene by spot exposing on the highlights and shadows, and I know how much I am trying to push and pull in LR. 3 stops DR means a lot.


Numbers do provide a lot of the context. E.g., one car travels at 70MPH and another only does 35MPH and I have to travel 280Miles then I know how much quicker the faster car will get me there. But the numbers wont tell me how comfortable the faster/slower car is, that I will have to try for myself as it is subjective.

 

[James J]

Completely off topic (well, most other posts are it seems!) but are you still shooting with a D90 DP? If so, are you planning on getting a D800 or are you waiting for a potential D300s replacement for wildlife?