Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics
- Thread starter dowie
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Man of Honour
Hold up, have I been watching the wrong Olympics? I don't remember anyone having to get their wang out and use it for performing the obvious!?
A missing arm would definitely hamper my ability to swim but I've never noticed my swimming performance change based on some willy shrivel if the waters a bit frosty.
Soldato
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Just as you can be female and masculine, though it seems you'd like to think those are mutually exclusive...
Maybe that's because something else was said. Indeed, you're banging on about specific cases in respose to a point where I said I was deliberately not speaking about any one particular case.
This is what happens when you base your argument on flawed premises and personal assumptions....
The former condition limits their ability to perform the same as their fellow competitors. The latter does not, and is therefore not a disability.
The I expect you'll be adding ginger people to the same list, on that rather shaky subjective basis....
DSD doesn't even qualify as a clinical disorder, despite the title being sometimes used.
They'd take one look at DSD applications, stamp them as unimpacted by their condition, and then throw them back at the regular Olympics.
So what - a disability doens't need relate to how well you perform at the Olympics.
Point is if there is to be an event for people with that medical condition then the Paralympics could hold it just as they do for other medical conditions.
Now you're just making up positions for me - no one said you can't, it's just not relevant here.
OK, but the point you were replying to was about a specific case - the Algerian boxer. The point here is that the boxer is male with a DSD condition.
You realise you've just contradicted your whole argument now?
You do in fact understand that males have an athletic advantage over females right?
If your position is that DSD males are unimpacted by their condition then what is the argument for them not competing as males?
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Soldato
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That is the very point of the Paralympics, though.
Only if the condition limits their ability to compete against their peers.
DSD does not qualify as a disability. That's all there is to it.
It's what you're not saying that makes it obvious.
The point I've been addressing concerns athletes with genetic differences in general, and more specifically about where the lines should be drawn.
Your witter about "male with a DSD condition" is one case and, as with all the others, without sufficient scientific data to confidently draw any lines at this stage.
OK, explain your brainworkings behind that idea.....
Yes, the nature of which is what is/will be studied and measured to determine for the DSD contingent.
What's your point?
Unimpacted, as in completely unimpaired and thus inelligible for Paralympic inclusion.
The argument is that there is insufficient science to exclude them from competing as female, even in individual cases, and that if the perception is that they are too advantaged then they should be discretely and confidentially precluded from competition until science can definitively establish whether any unacceptable advantage due to their specific biology
I understand you're thinking that "They're genetically males, but only perform like a local Kent club male athletes and so are disabled, thus should be Paralympians" or something, but even with limited study there are too many cases that suggest otherwise and have already been cleared to compete.
You're trying to apply very limited logical and statistical reasoning, without full context, in a global fashion to a subjective situation, which is more closely and far better governed by legal, moral and (lack of) scientific factors.
Soldato
IOC - “There should be a women’s category”
Also IOC - “We dunno what a woman is though.”
Also IOC - “We dunno what a woman is though.”
what are you saying here? that a biological male has given birth?
Soldato
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I'm saying that despite XY Chromo being hailed as definitively male, some have fully functioning female internals and there are 15-20 documented incidents of them giving birth, one of whom also had a mother with the exact same condition.
So in essence, yes, 'males' have given birth. Others with Swyer syndrome, a very similar XY condition, have also given birth but only after medical intervention with hormone therapy.
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I disagree that any of those would be considered biologically male - the lack of gene expression that results in testes makes them female.
I agree that XY is not enough to say 'male' - if the male genes are not actively expressed it results in a biological female, albeit one with a syndrome of some type.
Soldato
Khelif files a complaint for 'harassment' the news reporting doesn't seen to make it all that clear who the complaint is made against but I assume no part of the any subsequent procedure will include Khelif actually demonstrating that they don't have a male specific DSD
news.sky.com
On a side not I really do wish the media would stop using 'gender' when it's sex based difference that are the issue.
'Gender' used to be a synonym for sex for use by people too embarrassed to just say sex as it reffered to both reproductive roles and the physical act of reproduction but the words been hopelessly corrupted of late.
Algerian boxer Imane Khelif, at centre of Olympics gender row, files legal complaint over online harassment
Khelif was crowned an Olympic champion on Friday after comfortably beating China's Yang Liu by unanimous decision to win gold in the women's welterweight final.
On a side not I really do wish the media would stop using 'gender' when it's sex based difference that are the issue.
'Gender' used to be a synonym for sex for use by people too embarrassed to just say sex as it reffered to both reproductive roles and the physical act of reproduction but the words been hopelessly corrupted of late.
Soldato
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Shocking men can easily trample over women when it comes to fighting.
What i'm more interested in is what did her hormone profile look like. If she had the testosterone levels of a man there is no damn way she should have been fighting women.
What a joke if so.
Soldato
Open and read thread for translation.
Also I note the other athlete also won gold yesterday. Both the only boxers to win every round of every fight. Crazy co-incidence eh.
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Soldato
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I agree with your disagreement, though many won't... same as the likes of Chand, who very clearly have internal testicles and so are considered even more 'male', despite them affording no benefit or advantage and the idiot IOC allowing her to compete as female as a result.
The fact is, exact advantage needs to be definitively proven on an individual case level, but our science isn't set up for that yet, so we're left with opinions and assumptions based on limited information.
This is just not true, males have a clear advantage in athletics, you're trying to deliberately muddy the waters by referring to female intersex conditions but those have nothing to do with the controversy or what is being discussed here.
Because of that you completely missed or didn't understand the point being made re: the boxer being masculine.
Don't just take my word for it, here's a developmental biologist, it's pretty apparent this individual doesn't have Swyer, that's the point re: looking masculine.
You want to avoid that and go down some tangent re: the Paralympics but the point there is simply re: representation, if people feel strongly that intersex males with male advantages should still be able to compete then give them their own event and if you're unsure or if you believe there is some disadvantage for them vs regular males i.e. a disability then we have those games for that purpose.
And on that topic now we've got another controversy for the Paralympics
That's been pointed out to him several times now but he just pops back up with the same stale flawed argument to try and muddy the waters where it's not relevant - those aren't intersex people with male advantages ergo they're not relevant here as they don't have the code on the Y chromosome that causes male development.
It seems to be a common tactic to try and obfuscate this issue, similar thing happened as a side effect of the Semenya reporting but more unintentionally and related to publications trying to be sensitive with it.
When things are framed as "woman with naturally higher testosterone" (woman being used as a polite term re: social gender) then people get confused and think "that's a bit unfair, doesn't Michael Phelps have a natural advantage too" etc. When in reality it's a male person who had some genetic issue that impacted the development of "her" penis which didn't fully form/balls didn't drop and so was raised as if "she" was a girl. But it would be crass for papers to go into that detail so it's left with the polite description that causes confusion.