Champion's League Final **Will include spoilers**

BaZ87 said:
If an outfield player had fouled someone (worth a yellow) and the ref plays the advantage, he then goes back once the ball has gone out of play and books the player that commited the foul. So by the letter of the law if the ref allowed the advantage and let Barca's goal stand, he should still then send Lehmann off. I know it seems harsh but thats the rules.
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As I pointed out, the red card was for denying Barca (not the individual) a goalscoring chance. If he'd let the play go on and Barca scored, what did Lehmann deny Barca? The answer is nothing. He should have been booked and the goal stood.
 
should have been a goal and a red card, the Ref should have played advantage and let the game go on and then come back and sent the keeper off for a professional foul/denying a goal scoring oppertunity. thats what is supposed to happen if a player for example throws an elbow and the ref plays advantage.
 
NokkonWud said:
I don't disagree with you, this is my problem with this rule. But hypothetically, what if Guily hit the post, the ball came back to Lehmann and he scored for Arsenal? Should he not have instantly been sent off? (which he was)
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I would actually say that if the ref had let the play go on, and Guily had missed the shot, then Lehmann should still only have been booked. The ref had seen another goalscoring chance, and allowed Barca to attempt it. It's not the ref's fault, nor Lehmann's that Guily missed an open goal.
 
Dtab said:
In that example the saved shot is the end of the advantage,the ref can then stop play and send off the player - doesn't have to wait for a break in play.

I think the ref might have got away with allowing the goal and giving lemon a yellow,or if the foul had been in the box he could have sent off lemon and given a pen,but last night it seemed Barca got punished for an Arsenal foul
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But in my example what happens if the red card offence was 30 seconds before? Or longer? What I'm saying is I don't believe I've ever seen a ref play advantage, and then give a straight red.

Barca didn't get punished, then got 75 minutes to break down 10 men in weather which would take it out of the players even more.
 
Davey_Pitch said:
As I pointed out, the red card was for denying Barca (not the individual) a goalscoring chance. If he'd let the play go on and Barca scored, what did Lehmann deny Barca? The answer is nothing. He should have been booked and the goal stood.
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I know what your saying, but like i keep saying in a similar situation with an outfield player stopping a team breaking, the ref will still book the player even if he plays the advantage
 
BaZ87 said:
I know what your saying, but like i keep saying in a similar situation with an outfield player stopping a team breaking, the ref will still book the player even if he plays the advantage
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You actually don't seem to get what I'm saying. Lehmann's foul would have been a yellow card had there been 10 other Arsenal men around Eto'o (ie, the foul itself wasn't cynical enough to warrant a red card), but it was classed as a red card as he was judged to have denied Barca a goalscoring chance. If the ref had let the play go on, and Barca scored, then Lehmann didn't deny them a goalscoring chance, therefore meaning his yellow card foul wouldn't have been elevated to a red card.
 
Davey_Pitch said:
You actually don't seem to get what I'm saying. Lehmann's foul would have been a yellow card had there been 10 other Arsenal men around Eto'o (ie, the foul itself wasn't cynical enough to warrant a red card), but it was classed as a red card as he was judged to have denied Barca a goalscoring chance. If the ref had let the play go on, and Barca scored, then Lehmann didn't deny them a goalscoring chance, therefore meaning his yellow card foul wouldn't have been elevated to a red card.
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I don't think that's the way it works, Lehmann prevented that particular clear goalscoring opportunity, if then falls to another player it is another phase of play, Lehmann would've been sent off whether the ref had played advantage or not.
 
GBB said:
I don't think that's the way it works, Lehmann prevented that particular clear goalscoring opportunity, if then falls to another player it is another phase of play, Lehmann would've been sent off whether the ref had played advantage or not.
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If the ref plays advantage then I don't think he can send him off for denying a goalscoring opportunity, especially as Barca scored. My view is backed by the ref himself who's said he should have waited, allowed the goal and booked Lehmann.
 
Davey_Pitch said:
If the ref plays advantage then I don't think he can send him off for denying a goalscoring opportunity, especially as Barca scored. My view is backed by the ref himself who's said he should have waited, allowed the goal and booked Lehmann.
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Acctually, you're right, found this on premierleague.com:

Q: An attacker is clear on goal and is brought down by the keeper. However, the ball falls to another attacker who subsequently scores. If the Referee had deemed the original challenge a foul, denying that player an obvious goal scoring opportunity, but played an advantage to allow the other attacker to score, should the goalkeeper then be sent off?
Peter Bousfield, Solihull

A: No, you should not send the goalkeeper off as the offence is to deny a 'team' an obvious goal scoring opportunity not just an individual. You should caution the goalkeeper if you think his action was reckless.
 
Davey_Pitch said:
If the ref plays advantage then I don't think he can send him off for denying a goalscoring opportunity, especially as Barca scored. My view is backed by the ref himself who's said he should have waited, allowed the goal and booked Lehmann.
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If a player commits a foul worthy of a yellow or red card, even if an advantage is played that player should still recieve the same punishment whatever the outcome of the advantage. Ive seen what the ref has said but that makes no sence to me, surely its either a red or nothing at all.
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Well after seeing GBB's post it seems your right. Doesnt make sence to me though, surely if you commit a crime you should recieve the same punishment whatever the outcome.
 
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BaZ87 said:
Well after seeing GBB's post it seems your right. Doesnt make sence to me though, surely if you commit a crime you should recieve the same punishment whatever the outcome.
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In most cases I'd agree, but Lehmann commited two crimes with his foul...

1) He brought down Eto'o - yellow card offence
2) He denied Barca a clear goalscoring chance - red card offence.

However, if the ref lets play go on, then he hasn't commited the 2nd offence, therefore he only needs to be punished for the foul, which is why he should have only been yellow carded (if that, I think it was a genuine attempt for the ball).
 
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:D
 
Davey_Pitch said:
As I pointed out, the red card was for denying Barca (not the individual) a goalscoring chance. If he'd let the play go on and Barca scored, what did Lehmann deny Barca? The answer is nothing. He should have been booked and the goal stood.
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The offence is to deny an opponent a goal scoring opportunity, not the opposition team. Thats what Lehmann did. Even if it was the oppostion instead of the player, he still denyed a goal scoring opportunity, just another happened after it.
 
andi said:
The offence is to deny an opponent a goal scoring opportunity, not the opposition team. Thats what Lehmann did. Even if it was the oppostion instead of the player, he still denyed a goal scoring opportunity, just another happened after it.
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The link from the premier league disaggrees with you mate and so does the ref now. Wish he had made that decision in the game instead of sending Lehmann off! Still who knows what would have happened if the goal had stood, it's all ifs and maybes. Just hope we bounce back and have a better all round season next season, especially in the premiership
 
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I watched the game but couldn't believe some of the reffing decisions, I was actually shouting at my TV at one point out of rage. It was also suprising to see Henry getting so wound which was out of character I felt. But I dont think Arsenal should feel too bad about it.
 
Gutted for Arsenal fans right now. I knew it was over the moment Arsenal went ahead. English teams in Europe do not know how to defend a lead. We just sit back and invite pressure. Arsenal gave everything though and they've done the premiership proud.

If I was Wenger right now I'd fine Eboue, his dive was embarassing. I'm not going to comment on the referee, enough has been said. I will mention however that every scum bag ever to demand a booking should be booked straight away, it's absolutely disgusting.

Let's hope this fires up Henry and makes him more determined to stay and stuff Barcelona next year. If Arsenal don't, I hope Chelsea\Man Utd\Liverpool do.
 
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