China and war

[FoxEye]

Bigger question will be what will the world do in response.

For years now it's been a meme that the UK is the 51st US state, but by dancing to Trump's tune on this we have effectively announced to the whole planet that we're just a puppet which will do whatever nonsense uncle Sam demands. This isn't good considering in mere months our transitional period leaving the EU will end and for the first time in almost half a century we will be alone in the world. Now as countries line up to take advantage of us we don't even have strength of conviction to fall back on after breaking our agreements with Huawei just to please Trump, and there's no way he will help us get good deals from countries we try to negotiate with

Erm the UK and US are far from the only countries to ban Huawei, or consider them a high risk.

So I'm not sure how you figure that it's the US+UK vs the world?

 

[Rroff]

The problem has always been "numbers", you can have the best missile shield in the world but once you run out of missiles its worthless. So all the Chinese need to do is fire more cheap, easy to make anti-ship missiles than the task forces has "anti-missile" missiles and China wins, it's that simple. That is why the USN is heavily going into "no ammo needed" Laser tech to defeat missiles right now.

My reply really was about being taken out an hour before the fighting began (which I assume was alluding to hypersonic missiles and/or single sub attack) - if you are into a full on battle another story and different strategy entirely.

 

[SPG]

China wouldnt stand a chance, all they can do is NUKE, sure they would side with Russia but trying to occupy Europe & India would cost them dearly. No the best solution they have is causing crap in the background, same as Russia.

 

[neocon]

That Huawei gear is going to end up being installed somewhere, perhaps in Africa. Maybe they'll have 5G before us.

 

[BowdonUK]

It’s not something he’s made up it’s come from internal documents as far as I’m aware but you can follow that up yourself.

But yeah enemies have shared interests too and will happily work together if they think it would benefit themselves or their agendas.

I understand that part. That is how the Molotov and Ribbentrop pact came about between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

But it's like today, at no point in history have 2 aggressive superpowers co-existed in peace. I think the most that could happen would be a cold war between the Nazi's and the US. You're right that they share a lot of things, including fascist symbols (like the ones behind the President when he makes his Presidential speech), and even the right arm salute. The US was doing the bellemy salute that was only changed in 1942, Hitler had come to power in 1933, so for nearly 10 years both the US and the Nazi's were throwing the right arm up.

Let us not forget Huawei have form for being involved in murky incidents;

What’s the deal with Huawei and a hack at African Union headquarters?
https://medium.com/dukeuniversity/w...ck-at-african-union-headquarters-1e454c1f31a2

 

[ubersonic]

So you trust Huawei? Plenty of countries do not,what happens if Germany also stop work with them will they be tared with the same brush?

Guess all the experts on security must be getting paid by trump.

I don't completely trust any company, but I find it highly dubious that for 15+ years Huawei were perfectly trustworthy for our 2G network, and our 3G network, and our 4G network, and were considered trustworthy for our 5G network until all of a sudden Trump decided to throw his toys out the pram and now all of a sudden it's a major risk because they're a Chinese company and so there's a risk that the Chinese government might take them over and hack our voicemails and whatnot.

The funniest thing about all this is, Trump tried to sabotage Huawei so that US companies can fill the void, but there isn't even a US option, it's Scandinavian companies that will pick up Huawei's lost business xD

On the US note though, I do find it a tad comical that we're all of a sudden worried about the likes of Huawei building part of our communications networks because they're Chinese and their government could take them over and spy on us, yet we're perfectly fine with Cisco being involved, a US company with a documented past of NSA backdoors

 

[FoxEye]

There is absolutely no doubt we're too reliant on China tho. For cheap manufacture/labour, if nothing else.

Whatever the motives, moving away from total reliance on China can only be a good thing, if not in the short term.

 

[StriderX]

There is absolutely no doubt we're too reliant on China tho. For cheap manufacture/labour, if nothing else.

Whatever the motives, moving away from total reliance on China can only be a good thing, if not in the short term.

Yeah and moving to total reliance on someone else in the name of profit. Assuming that self-reliance isn't fully possible at the moment, the least that should be done is spreading it out and making the supply chain resilient rather than efficient.

The problem being that it requires stable countries, which considering the pressures on society this century, I'm not sure there'll be many candidates.

 

[Eurofighter]

We need India to get its act together and become the new place to manufacture stuff.

 

[alchal]

I don't completely trust any company, but I find it highly dubious that for 15+ years Huawei were perfectly trustworthy for our 2G network, and our 3G network, and our 4G network, and were considered trustworthy for our 5G network until all of a sudden Trump decided to throw his toys out the pram and now all of a sudden it's a major risk because they're a Chinese company and so there's a risk that the Chinese government might take them over and hack our voicemails and whatnot.

The funniest thing about all this is, Trump tried to sabotage Huawei so that US companies can fill the void, but there isn't even a US option, it's Scandinavian companies that will pick up Huawei's lost business xD

On the US note though, I do find it a tad comical that we're all of a sudden worried about the likes of Huawei building part of our communications networks because they're Chinese and their government could take them over and spy on us, yet we're perfectly fine with Cisco being involved, a US company with a documented past of NSA backdoors

Well one doesn't go around killing their own citizens or locking people up for going against the party or sticking them in 'happy camps'
Look at honk Kong.

Comparing China to the USA is laughable at best.

China is not an ally to us.

Again it's more than just hacking someone's 'what we having for dinner luv' messages.

 

[DarrenM343]

I don't think China wants conflict but can easily see it happening between China and the USA in future. I'll give it 100 years or a lot less with Trump types running the joint. Reason? USA is losing it's top spot. The dynamics of the world are changing. It's natural progression however but some may try to force a return to other times or bring down the country threatening their position.

China does have its issues but the West is making a real mashup of things lately - we're hardly the societies for other nations to imitate. China has a blend of some good parts of communism with capitalism which is working well. I personally would love to spend some time out there. I saw recently that most don't want to leave China. Well to do single women for example want to take a Westerner into the country to marry for example, rather than trying to find one to try to escape the country with.

The West has helped created China by the greed for profit and desire for reasonably priced goods. Nothing necessarily wrong with that either as we've done it for years now so too late to complain now but is why I say it's a natural progression. It's helped share wealth globally too.

Having worked with lots of people in the past in IT, I've actually been most impressed by those from China. It's clear to me they have a high level of intelligence as a race and I believe their education system is far better than anything we provide.

Anyway, if people don't see China as an ally to us then maybe we should actually do something to make that so, instead of following our tradition stance (and being America's sock puppet) /or simply calling out "communism". Different than us but lets work together. China is more capitalist than the UK too.

Most of what we learn about China comes from our leaders or the press. If things escalated between China and the USA it'd be difficult to form a fair opinion of it, IMO.

 

[deuse]

There is absolutely no doubt we're too reliant on China tho. For cheap manufacture/labour, if nothing else.

Whatever the motives, moving away from total reliance on China can only be a good thing, if not in the short term.

This.

 

[sanaxe1]

I don't think China wants conflict but can easily see it happening between China and the USA in future. I'll give it 100 years or a lot less with Trump types running the joint. Reason? USA is losing it's top spot. The dynamics of the world are changing. It's natural progression however but some may try to force a return to other times or bring down the country threatening their position.

China does have its issues but the West is making a real mashup of things lately - we're hardly the societies for other nations to imitate. China has a blend of some good parts of communism with capitalism which is working well. I personally would love to spend some time out there. I saw recently that most don't want to leave China. Well to do single women for example want to take a Westerner into the country to marry for example, rather than trying to find one to try to escape the country with.

The West has helped created China by the greed for profit and desire for reasonably priced goods. Nothing necessarily wrong with that either as we've done it for years now so too late to complain now but is why I say it's a natural progression. It's helped share wealth globally too.

Having worked with lots of people in the past in IT, I've actually been most impressed by those from China. It's clear to me they have a high level of intelligence as a race and I believe their education system is far better than anything we provide.

Anyway, if people don't see China as an ally to us then maybe we should actually do something to make that so, instead of following our tradition stance (and being America's sock puppet) /or simply calling out "communism". Different than us but lets work together. China is more capitalist than the UK too.

Most of what we learn about China comes from our leaders or the press. If things escalated between China and the USA it'd be difficult to form a fair opinion of it, IMO.

Yeh they a real good educational system. I especially like the uyghur reeducation camps

 

[Dis86]

Yeh they a real good educational system. I especially like the uyghur reeducation camps

ouch.

 

[alchal]

Maybe they could be an ally if they didn't threaten with invading Taiwan and threatening the entire region,just for a start.

 

[DarrenM343]

Yeh they a real good educational system. I especially like the uyghur reeducation camps

Well, their kids are learning stuff at a much younger age than over here, probably as we have laws around straining brains or something daft

Maybe they could be an ally if they didn't threaten with invading Taiwan and threatening the entire region,just for a start.

Taiwan > China situation is difficult as it depends if considering the ROC or POC whether it falls under being part of China. Not great though hence, one of China's issues. But how about the invasion of Iraq? Maybe in China they feel justified by threatening yet not taking any action.

 

[ianh]

Darren - You're fully entitled to your opinions, I'm not trying to change your mind or say you are wrong and I am right, but what I will do is provide counter-balance to your comments.

China does have its issues but the West is making a real mashup of things lately - we're hardly the societies for other nations to imitate. China has a blend of some good parts of communism with capitalism which is working well. I personally would love to spend some time out there.

I sure it's great, just as long as you aren't Muslim (approx 1 million in camps), or Black (rampant racism even today), or a woman (1 child policy with China preferring males meant females killed/abandoned at birth), or a LGBTQ+ (no marriage, no rights, only 15% feel safe to "come out"), or a Christian (hundreds of churches shut down), or believe in Democracy (9000+ arrested including children as young as 11), or think there's any problems with Communism (est 3000 killed in Tiananmen square during anti-communism protests) etc. Yeah, I agree China has some "issues".

Having worked with lots of people in the past in IT, I've actually been most impressed by those from China. It's clear to me they have a high level of intelligence as a race and I believe their education system is far better than anything we provide.

You have seen just an infinitesimally small section of the 1+ billion people in China (around 0.00003% if you personally know 300 people which seems a high but reasonable number) who, as IT workers are amongst the more highly educated compared to the 580 million farmers and countryside workers who get very little "state" education past the age of 12 (when they start working the farms) and yet you're happy to make that fairly global assertion based on that which I find a little odd.

Yeh they a real good educational system. I especially like the uyghur reeducation camps

Well, their kids are learning stuff at a much younger age than over here, probably as we have laws around straining brains or something daft

I'm not sure if you understand what a "re-education" camp is but here's what the the Kids in those camps are "learning" - These camps have left approximately 400,000 children who are forcibly removed from their parents. These orphaned children are then "re-educated" in state run boarding schools where they are forced to learn Mandarin Chinese and prevented from exercising their religion and they can never leave until they can demonstrate they have transformed their behaviour, beliefs and language to a standard deemed acceptable to the Government.

I'm personally glad we have laws against doing something "daft" in comparison.

 

[DarrenM343]

I'm not sure if you understand what a "re-education" camp is but here's what the the Kids in those camps are "learning" - These camps have left approximately 400,000 children who are forcibly removed from their parents. These orphaned children are then "re-educated" in state run boarding schools where they are forced to learn Mandarin Chinese and prevented from exercising their religion and they can never leave until they can demonstrate they have transformed their behaviour, beliefs and language to a standard deemed acceptable to the Government.

I'm personally glad we have laws against doing something "daft" in comparison.

Indeed, I know what a re-education camp is but immediately the topic changed straight to a negative aspect of China and 'part' of their education system. I was not talking about such camps. While such camps are not right, I do wonder how those who leave feel about them some years later.

We can just google search to find stuff to back up our narrative about any nation to be negative about and the Chinese can no doubt do that too, especially given the history of the British Empire for example.

The problem we all have is that what we know and experience, we think is the best. Most of us are biased and believe other countries should be just like ours . In fact, the UK and USA have even admitted trying to force this on other nations in the past which was not great either.

However we spin it, the West is in decline while the East (notably the power houses of China and even Russia) are rising. We must evolve and find a way to work together or we become of less importance or possibly ending in war. Focusing on the negatives and calling them a foe rather than ally is futile. How will China be (in once they're a fully developed nation rather than an emerging/developing one.

 

[alchal]

Well, their kids are learning stuff at a much younger age than over here, probably as we have laws around straining brains or something daft


Taiwan > China situation is difficult as it depends if considering the ROC or POC whether it falls under being part of China. Not great though hence, one of China's issues. But how about the invasion of Iraq? Maybe in China they feel justified by threatening yet not taking any action.

We invaded Iraq yes but we did not occupy,I see no western flags or government in charge.

They will invade and occupy and all the amazing commie crap will be enforced upon them.

Big difference

 

[alchal]

Indeed, I know what a re-education camp is but immediately the topic changed straight to a negative aspect of China and 'part' of their education system. I was not talking about such camps. While such camps are not right, I do wonder how those who leave feel about them some years later.

Like with everything, you we can just google search to find stuff to back up our narrative about any nation to be negative about and the Chinese can no doubt do that too, especially given the history of the British Empire for example.

The problem we all have is that what we know and experience, we think is the best. Most of us are biased and believe other countries should be just like ours . In fact, the UK and USA have even admitted trying to force this on other nations in the past which was not great either.

However we spin it, the West is in decline while the East (notably the power houses of China and even Russia) are rising. We must evolve and find a way to work together or we become of less importance or possibly ending in war. Focusing on the negatives and calling them a foe rather than ally is futile. How will China be once they're a fully developed nation rather than an emerging one.

China will force kids to do lots of things if it helps them,if it burns a few thousand kids out who cares...it benefits the party that's all that counts.

Russia is all bark it's military is crumbling still,if not for nukes they would be nothing,rising power in Putin's dreams.

Tell me all the positive points on china?must be amazing as the Hong Kong citizens are openly rejoicing at more control and eroding of civil rights.