China and war

[alchal]

No fella our involvement in the Middle East is much more recent than WW2 for example.

Even if so, China is just on the same path we were/are. What’s right for us can’t be wrong for others. In fact the countries we have the biggest issues with just happen to be those that are not afraid of us. China, Russia and Iran are the only countries left that will not just roll over and give us what we want.

To think China need 5g to gain information about us is laughable. Like a Chinese hacker couldn’t hack Intels renowned security measures. Stop being silly your information is not that hard to access if it was that important to them or anyone else.

It's about spreading disinformation,finding out what the populace/think/do/say.
It's Information war and especially with the Chinese ideological.

Difference is we are not run by crazy arse dictators who hate free speech/love to put innocent people into prison,murder you name it they do it and then some to people who think differently.

Also we are not threatening to anex areas or countries ie Crimea or what China wants to do with Taiwan.

 

[StriderX]

1930's all over again
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3862578
https://quillette.com/2020/01/03/bloody-harvest-how-everyone-ignored-the-crime-of-the-century/

Assuming it's true, which is not a given in post-truth society (especially when it surrounds a hegemonic rival), it's not really the 1930's as if you're trying to compare it to Nazi death camps, those only began mass murder in 1941. Regardless of the semantics, we never went to war over it, otherwise we'd have dealt with Turkey and Rwanda similarly.

I pose the question if this is happening, why aren't we already over there?

 

[Jokester]

Finally looks like Huawei has had the plug pulled on its spy ring ambitions over here.

I find it baffling that we even entertained the idea.

I'm not sure who the guy actually was, but one of Huawei big wigs in the UK was called in front of the MP security commitee or whatever it's called, part of the interview went along this lines:-

MP - "How is Huawei to work for? I take it they are an open and tolerant company that allow their employees to speak freely without fear?"

Huawei - "Yes, they're a great company in that regards"

MP - "What do you think of what's going on in Hong Kong at the moment?"

Huawei - ...

 

[Doobedoo]

It's about spreading disinformation,finding out what the populace/think/do/say.
It's Information war and especially with the Chinese ideological.

Are you serious? You really think they need 5g and Huawei in order to find out what the populace thinks. Come on all your lives are plastered all over Facebook and twitter and the rest of it. Get real.

 

[alchal]

T

Are you serious? You really think they need 5g and Huawei in order to find out what the populace thinks. Come on all your lives are plastered all over Facebook and twitter and the rest of it. Get real.

Far far easier if they have the ability to send data as soon as it's sent ie keywords etc,hacking etc and sifting through is time wasting.

5g equals more information and not just social media Facebook stuff.

 

[mmj_uk]

Difference is we are not run by crazy arse dictators who hate free speech/love to put innocent people into prison,murder you name it they do it and then some to people who think differently.

If you listen to half of the population we are, or the US is at least (resist Trump, fake Russia collusion etc)... so you have to ask yourself who is really winning the propaganda war.

I think the problem the west has is rather than being a one party totalitarian system where dissidents are thrown into prison our democratic system allows corporations, parties and people sympathetic to the Chinese system and government to carry on as normal undermining our country/society from within. Social media are promoting Chinese style censorship rather than western free speech, we have cancel culture instead of the rule of law which is essentially forcing conformity through fear of reprisal, something like 95% of corporate media coverage about Trump has been negative and Brexit has been much the same etc.

 

[alchal]

If you listen to half of the population we are, or the US is at least (resist Trump, fake Russia collusion etc)... so you have to ask yourself who is really winning the propaganda war.

I think the problem the west has is rather than being a one party totalitarian system where dissidents are thrown into prison our democratic system allows corporations, parties and people sympathetic to the Chinese system and government to carry on as normal undermining our country/society from within. Social media are promoting Chinese style censorship rather than western free speech, cancel culture instead of the rule of law which is essentially forcing conformity through fear of reprisal etc.

True we are going down a scary path the other way where you will become a social outcast from society of you dare to think or say differently.
Join the latest outrage or you are finished.

 

[alchal]

Assuming it's true, which is not a given in post-truth society (especially when it surrounds a hegemonic rival), it's not really the 1930's as if you're trying to compare it to Nazi death camps, those only began mass murder in 1941. Regardless of the semantics, we never went to war over it, otherwise we'd have dealt with Turkey and Rwanda similarly.

I pose the question if this is happening, why aren't we already over there?

Because they have nuclear weapons, provide us with cheap goods that keep the big corporations happy and they are not on our doorstep.

That and politicians will probably get a few quid for turning a blind eye I would imagine.

(Assuming you mean trying to stop them and not why are we not over there getting us some halal organs)

 

[neocon]

I don't care about Hong Kong, it belongs to China, let them do what they want with it.

I'm not interested in fighting other people's battles either.

I'll keep buying Chinese stuff though.

 

[Doobedoo]

T


Far far easier if they have the ability to send data as soon as it's sent ie keywords etc,hacking etc and sifting through is time wasting.

5g equals more information and not just social media Facebook stuff.

If they want the information they can get it just like any other country. We are making this stuff up as we always need a boogie man. Tomorrow it’ll be the Russians on Tuesday it’ll be the Iranians and the Friday special of the week is the Chinese.

We just can’t ourselves we’re never as content as when we have something or someone to fear.... Unless you turn off the tv then you realise the World isn’t as crazy as it’s made out to be.

 

[Rroff]

We just can’t ourselves we’re never as content as when we have something or someone to fear.... Unless you turn off the tv then you realise the World isn’t as crazy as it’s made out to be.

Very real risk of a head in sand situation though - the world right now isn't as crazy as it is made out to be but it isn't as stable as switching off might lead you to believe either.

 

[Doobedoo]

Very real risk of a head in sand situation though - the world right now isn't as crazy as it is made out to be but it isn't as stable as switching off might lead you to believe either.

I’d agree but tell me this. Is it unstable due to the way we and trump are behaving or is it just the way it is?.

If you want to listen to an highly educated and balanced view of world affairs then you wouldn’t find much better than this guy. I’d trust him over the media everyday of the week and twice on sundays.

Posed the question can we abandon relations with China

Fascinating interview. Covers a lot but from a neutral perspective.

 

[alchal]

If they want the information they can get it just like any other country. We are making this stuff up as we always need a boogie man. Tomorrow it’ll be the Russians on Tuesday it’ll be the Iranians and the Friday special of the week is the Chinese.

We just can’t ourselves we’re never as content as when we have something or someone to fear.... Unless you turn off the tv then you realise the World isn’t as crazy as it’s made out to be.

If you mean that the Russian government doesn't like killing people who disagree and annexing parts of other countries?

If you mean China who keeps stating it will take Taiwan back,has 'camps' for Chinese Muslims and also kills people who disagree with them.

Iran who openly admits it won't stop until it's destroyed Israel.

But yeah they are not crazy.

I guess NK is misunderstood as well?

 

[Rroff]

I’d agree but tell me this. Is it unstable due to the way we and trump are behaving or is it just the way it is?.

There is certainly a factor that those kind of things fuel resentments and so on - propaganda is a big story when it comes to war. However the underlying reasons for tension are still there - jostling for geopolitical power, cultural differences, requirements for resources and so on - those don't go away if you ignore the subject (there is a real risk of complacency or the perception of weakness emboldening those who are prepared to take steps that might ultimately lead to war).

With all due respect to Noam Chomsky many of the same arguments (increased globalisation of trade and social aspects, financial dependencies and/or ownership, etc.) were put forward as to why both WW1 and WW2 wouldn't happen in the years before they did - while those factors might make war less likely they aren't as much of a bulwark against war as some would like to think. The last bit in that video about financial share and internal problems also haven't prevented countries going down paths that have ultimately lead to war in the past - sometimes to try and deflect from internal problems.

 

[BowdonUK]

Not sure why people are bothered about being spied on, every country spies on the other and have done for a long time the U.S is by far the worse with all their alphabet agencies.

I remember when people were saying the government is spying on you 20 or more years ago, they were told they were crazy conspiracy theorists... Yet the Government was spying on you.

Just face it the west is being out wested by the east.

I think being spied on by an allied country (or even our own) isn't the same as being spied on by a totalitarian regime. This situation is far worse than 20+ years ago.

I agree on your last line. We (British and US) put many of these governments in to power because we could bribe them. Now China have taken over the bribery and corruption.

China is only a threat today because 'our' amoral capitalists sold our industries for cheap labour and China have slowly built up their industries. The West have created the monster.

Maybe the silverlining of this situation is that our leaders will be forced to become more nationalistic and support our home grown industries here in order to catch up.

 

[neocon]

What do you think the Chinese will do in response to the Huawei decision?

Where will Germany get it's 5G from?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/world/europe/huawei-germany-china-5g-automakers.html

Be interesting to see if other countries risk their export business to China.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

What do you think the Chinese will do in response to the Huawei decision?

Where will Germany get it's 5G from?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/world/europe/huawei-germany-china-5g-automakers.html

Be interesting to see if other countries risk their export business to China.

Ericsson, Nokia, NEC, Samsung are all competing with Huawei to supply 5G infrastructure.

It's never a good idea to have one company monopolise tech, especially when it's able to undercut the competition due to its links to a foreign state.

 

[neocon]

Ericsson, Nokia, NEC, Samsung are all competing with Huawei to supply 5G infrastructure.

It's never a good idea to have one company monopolise tech, especially when it's able to undercut the competition due to its links to a foreign state.

Yes that's fair enough, but they will respond by banning something in the other direction.


Top ten UK goods exports to China by type, 2019
£ billions % of total
Gold, non-monetory 6.4 27.3%
Petroleum, petroleum products 4.6 19.3%
Road vehicles 3.0 12.9%
Medicinal & pharmaceutical products 1.5 6.5%
Power generating machinery & equipment 1.0 4.1%
Electrical machinery & appliances 0.7 2.9%
Professional, scientific & controlling instruments, n.e.s. 0.7 2.9%
General industrial machinery & equipment 0.6 2.6%
Non-ferrous metals 0.5 2.1%
Metalliferous ores & metal scrap 0.5 1.9%

 

[Minusorange]

Surprised nobody posted this yesterday - https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...nearly-all-chinese-claims-in-south-china-sea/

WASHINGTON — The Trump administration escalated its actions against China on Monday by stepping squarely into one of the most sensitive regional issues dividing them and rejecting outright nearly all of Beijing’s significant maritime claims in the South China Sea.

The administration presented the decision as an attempt to curb China’s increasing assertiveness in the region with a commitment to recognizing international law. But it will almost certainly have the more immediate effect of further infuriating the Chinese, who are already retaliating against numerous U.S. sanctions and other penalties on other matters.

It also comes as President Donald Trump has come under growing fire for his response to the COVID-19 pandemic, stepped up criticism of China ahead of the 2020 election and sought to paint his expected Democratic challenger, former Vice President Joe Biden, as weak on China.

And today

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-set-to-confront-china-with-new-aircraft-carrier-v2gnwrr88

Military chiefs have drawn up plans to base one of Britain’s new aircraft carriers in the Far East to play a part in countering an increasingly assertive China, The Times can reveal.

HMS Queen Elizabeth, the first of the two carriers to complete training, will set sail on its maiden grand voyage as the centrepiece of a carrier strike group early next year. The £3.1 billion vessel is expected to visit the Far East, conducting military exercises with allies including the United States and Japan.

If it's meant as intimidation I don't think it will work on China

 

[Freakbro]

, something like 95% of corporate media coverage about Trump has been negative and Brexit has been much the same etc.

Even if that claim is true, I can't be bothered to query it, there's a pretty obvious reason why that would be isn't there. There's not many positive things to say when you step in a pile of dog****