Chinese cars

Tom_ed1987 said:
If you buy one you are essentially directly supporting the CCP.
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lol good luck boycotting Chinese manufacture.

more seriously

This is a really tough one

on one hand I don't think it is good at all the Chinese having essentially a monopoly on the vehicle industry.

on the other hand.... we need to go greener, and radically cut our CO2. for cars the best way to do this is an EV.

it really isn't China's fault that almost all traditional automotive companies chose short term profits over long term viability. they all had equal warning and far more notice than needed

so over all screw em!. politically if governments don't want China ruling the car world they need to counter by subsidising battery manufacture (which is where car companies are really struggling). (but as a business venture where they actually have shares which pay back to the locals)
I don't think specifically bailing out private car companies is the answer. (not without becoming a share holder like any other investor anyway with the government getting dividends).. they are not nationalised so it's not on average Jo to bail out VW or Toyota.

I don't agree with China politically but yet again they have embarrassed the incumbent and hats off to them .... taxing better vehicles to help force inferior ones is not the answer.

even the battery factory being built in the UK. I bet the government (aka us) are paying a huge amount of cash for that
whilst I would not be surprised if Sunaks family are benefitting , why is that not a British company doing it? surely we have the expertise and shouldn't need TATA to be doing it.

so just like all our windpower off shore, someone else will be making loads of money of what should be British profits.
 
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Even removing the battery from the equation, China already have a stranglehold on car part manufacturing.

It’s basically where everything electronic is made which enables the car to operate already, ICE or BEV. The part may say have a German tier 1 parts suppliers brand on it, but bets on it was made in China.
 
With the eu/uk rules of origin of electric vehicles batteries , even in conjunction with German, or Biden home produced ev credits the inequalities of Chinese state subsidy are already addressed,
prc manufacturing capability lead, is also somewhat marginal if you consider the relatively poorer quality of that native production/product;

Ursula's comments probably indicate EU will not relax the, 2024 new year I thought, rules of origin, which sounds liked the EU will also not bend to any demand from Rishi of a mutual relaxation with the UK,
and us giving competitive advantage to chinese batteried cars, in the short term (so prices go up in 2024)
 
bigmike20vt said:
lol good luck boycotting Chinese manufacture.

more seriously

This is a really tough one

on one hand I don't think it is good at all the Chinese having essentially a monopoly on the vehicle industry.

on the other hand.... we need to go greener, and radically cut our CO2. for cars the best way to do this is an EV.

it really isn't China's fault that almost all traditional automotive companies chose short term profits over long term viability. they all had equal warning and far more notice than needed

so over all screw em!. politically if governments don't want China ruling the car world they need to counter by subsidising battery manufacture (which is where car companies are really struggling). (but as a business venture where they actually have shares which pay back to the locals)
I don't think specifically bailing out private car companies is the answer. (not without becoming a share holder like any other investor anyway with the government getting dividends).. they are not nationalised so it's not on average Jo to bail out VW or Toyota.

I don't agree with China politically but yet again they have embarrassed the incumbent and hats off to them .... taxing better vehicles to help force inferior ones is not the answer.

even the battery factory being built in the UK. I bet the government (aka us) are paying a huge amount of cash for that
whilst I would not be surprised if Sunaks family are benefitting , why is that not a British company doing it? surely we have the expertise and shouldn't need TATA to be doing it.

so just like all our windpower off shore, someone else will be making loads of money of what should be British profits.
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I couldn't put it better myself, it just seems nuts that the writing has been on the wall for 10 maybe 15 years for all to see yet so many of the big players chose to wilfully ignore it for short term profits?

Look at Nissan/Renault and BMW, they had a really big early lead with BEV and then just sat on their hands and watched it and did nothing all the while China were ramping up.
 
@jpaul (sorry forgot to quote)

poorer quality? last I heard it was generally considered that the best built Tesla's and even some.... BMWs etc iirc are the ones made in china.

don't confuse cheaper vehicles with less luxury finishings with poorer actual vehicle quality.

there is nothing at all stopping the Chinese market releasing a high end luxury car over here with all the furnishings of a marque vehicle and it would still massively undercut the likes of Porsche, merc, Audi etc
(I am gutted the xpeng P7 is not bound for our shores)
 
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b0rn2sk8 said:
Even removing the battery from the equation, China already have a stranglehold on car part manufacturing.

It’s basically where everything electronic is made which enables the car to operate already, ICE or BEV. The part may say have a German tier 1 parts suppliers brand on it, but bets on it was made in China.
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true the Chinese have bossed manufacture for years but that hadn't stopped other companies competing even using Chinese built parts.

I am not even convinced the likes of the VW ID3 even have the "more luxurious" fixtures and fittings any more. I admit I have not been in one but I am told by people who have it feels really quite cheap inside now , not like the equivalent golf of past years
 
A golf was never luxury, it was just the upper end of mainstream with the likes of Ford etc sat just below.

That said the ID series is a step down, it’s just had a face lift and I’ve not seen it so it may have improved.
 
bigmike20vt said:
true the Chinese have bossed manufacture for years but that hadn't stopped other companies competing even using Chinese built parts.

I am not even convinced the likes of the VW ID3 even have the "more luxurious" fixtures and fittings any more. I admit I have not been in one but I am told by people who have it feels really quite cheap inside now , not like the equivalent golf of past years
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The ID.3 is weird, the material quality is low rent, the build quality is good, and the open and minimalist design is very unlike very other VW vehicle.
However, once over that, you start to really like the Tesla-esque open design, and the ride comfort and drivetrain are first rate, not to mention the level of tech offered is higher than I expected.

Normally I like a car for it's aesthetics/material quality etc, then get disappointed on the test drive.. the ID.3 was the opposite.. the aesthetics/material quality put me off, but the test drive made me do a 180..

I can't stand sitting in a golf now, black, dowdy and cramped interior, it's depressing..
 
They are quite cheapo cars with a badge TBH. Expensive because it's an EV.

Recycled plastics now used in car interiors doesn't help though, they feel brittle and damage easily.
 
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bigmike20vt said:
poorer quality? last I heard it was generally considered that the best built Tesla's and even some.... BMWs etc iirc are the ones made in china.

don't confuse cheaper vehicles with less luxury finishings with poorer actual vehicle quality.
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yes I mean poorer vehicle quality - you can put budget tyres on your car, or use cheaper pattern parts (even cheap bulbs) that, all come, from China,
if the parts on a Geely , or Saic car are tantamount to iterating that choice across the complete car then you know the average reliability will be less.
Quality is not for free if you want tight +/- 3-sigma tolerances on components.

Would be interesting to know what the lifetime&cost expectations are for Chinese owners
 
SkyTerran said:
OK, but if you buy an iPhone assembled in China do you support the CCP?

A huge part of the products on the shelves of our shops are made in China. Most European EVs have batteries made in China - and the battery is the most expensive part of an EV.
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Not in the same way, for items manufactured in China but created by foreign companies the amount of money going to the Chinese economy is much smaller.
 
Even though CATL aren't government/CCP owned - do they put B grade batteries into ev cars from Chinese manufacturers (production is like silicon chips with binning),

assume government could control the cost of the lithium that was going into cells too, such that cells for the Western manufacturers cost more, or, more easily they impose an export tax.
 
jpaul said:
Even though CATL aren't government/CCP owned - do they put B grade batteries into ev cars from Chinese manufacturers (production is like silicon chips with binning),

assume government could control the cost of the lithium that was going into cells too, such that cells for the Western manufacturers cost more, or, more easily they impose an export tax.
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Follow the lithium per ton price over time and it's dropped back down a lot, talk of sodium batteries helps bring it down sharply.
www.investing.com

Lithium Carbonate 99.5%Min China Spot Price - Investing.com

Get detailed information about Lithium Carbonate 99.5%Min China Spot including Price, Charts, Technical Analysis, Historical data, Reports and more.
www.investing.com
 
I subsequently read this too on the chinese battery advantage
www.forbes.com

China Has Perfectly Tangled The Battery Value Chain With Electric Vehicles - A Combo The U.S. And Europe Will Find Hard To Beat

China’s dominance in batteries and its broad range of very competitive EVs present a real threat to the U.S. and European auto industry. Here is what needs to happen now
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
Today, China already has a roughly 30% cost advantage over Europe and the U.S., with an average battery pack priced at $127 per kWh. In comparison, production costs in Europe are set to stay around $100-120 million/GWh or above partly due to high industrial electricity prices.
These are on average 2.5 to 3.5x (0,21€/kWh) that of the U.S. (0,08€/kWh) and China (0,06€/kWh), but vary significantly across the continent, with Germany at roughly 1€/kWh and Sweden and Norway at 0,11€/kWh and 0,06€/kWh, respectively. But the needle keeps moving on this topic, as wholesale electricity prices in Europe dropped by 50% in 2023 as compared to the second half of 2022.
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which seemed a bit damning, since I thought the chinese electricity was green so carbon border taxes from eu/uk would also right that wrong
 
China only have an advantage on batteries because of consumer electronics manufacturing and cheaper labour rates. Up until very recently that has almost entirely been done in China.

That’s starting to diversify for political reasons, particularly the supply chain and the same will happen with BEV batteries.
 
Demon said:
The ID.3 is weird, the material quality is low rent, the build quality is good, and the open and minimalist design is very unlike very other VW vehicle.
However, once over that, you start to really like the Tesla-esque open design, and the ride comfort and drivetrain are first rate, not to mention the level of tech offered is higher than I expected.

Normally I like a car for it's aesthetics/material quality etc, then get disappointed on the test drive.. the ID.3 was the opposite.. the aesthetics/material quality put me off, but the test drive made me do a 180..

I can't stand sitting in a golf now, black, dowdy and cramped interior, it's depressing..
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A bit gutted by the material quality and feel of the VW ID,3,4 & 5. We were looking to replace the wife's Tiguan but we both sat in one and it just didn’t feel like it was worth the money. Shame as we have had Vw’s for years but this round of penny pinching will probably see us go to another manufacturer.
 
I know some people say is dated with how it is designed because of it but it is one of the reasons i really like my ipace.

its nice and practical and what not and plenty of room and storage... but it still very much "feels" like inside a car. i like to think "classic" rather than dated but potato potato i guess (that really does not work in written form!)
 
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