Chinese Grand Prix 2011, Shanghai International Circuit - Race 3/19

I think they need to close the gap up between the compounds. The gap is too large, webber was going nowhere. I actually started to think they were hiding a car problem. Then he stuck on the softs and the car came alive.

They need to close the gap, make them last and still have some pace or scrap them and take one tyre. I think the racing would be better to just take one tyre the soft choice and see how they can conserve them while racing.

Forcing them onto an utterly crap tyre has never made sence to me even before this year.
 
Kerming said:
not fair? whats not fair about him being slow and the car catching him attualy has a chance of overtaking? oh, btw lewis didn't use the drs on vettle, he just drove round on fresher tires. :p
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They have a chance of overtaking especially this year with the closed following distances, DRS is unfair. It is intentionally unfair and has no place in any sport. There has always been overtaking in every season.
 
AcidHell2 said:
They have a chance of overtaking especially this year with the closed following distances, DRS is unfair. It is intentionally unfair and has no place in any sport. There has always been overtaking in every season.
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The problem with overtaking was highlighted last year between Alonso and Petrov. Throughout the last few years people have blamed Tilke designed tracks.

Now that the FIA have introduced rules to allow overtaking, people are now complaining that overtaking is too easy.

Come on guys, make up your mind.

Yesterday's race was one of the best dry races I have seen in a very long time. It was unpredictable and even when Vettel hit the lead, he was vulnerable. In years gone by, once a driver hits the front, even if the car behind is 2-3s/lap faster, he would struggle to overtake. The new rules have now cured this problem.

The car in front, using its aerodynamics to "spoil" the air behind it (for the car behind) is unfair on the driver behind. DRS merely re-balances this.

I'm shocked to see that some people want a return to processional racing.
 
Its not about easiness it's about fairness DRS is not fair, it is legal cheating. We can have easier overtaking and no DRS, they haveallready improved it massively by removing double diffuser,just look at the time gaps between cars.

DRS does not rebalance this, it is still available when along side and once past. It shouldn't be available full stop.

I would rather a return to processional rather than DRS. But what I want is no DRS and less areo and more mechanical grip, which will actually solve the problem and have fair racing.

We also just don't have the difference in engines and other variables we had many years ago.
 
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AcidHell2 said:
... what I want is no DRS and less areo and more mechanical grip, ...
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Not going to happen in the next few years.

US$Billions have been invested in creating computer/systems and hardware to create cars which are aerodynamically advanced. None of the leading teams are going to agree to cut back on aero (or aero development).

Last year when the fastest car on the grid hit the front (ie. an RBR car), it was almost a forgone conclusion (unless it rained, broke down or had an accident), that that car would win the race. This year, this is no longer the case. This mainly down to the tyres and strategy, ie. rules which the FIA have introduced.

The FIA has to work around the problem of aerodynamic dependence and IMO, judging by the last 3 races, they have succeeded.
 
It is going to happen in 2013 ground effect. It has also already happens, no aero sticky out bits between axels, higher front wing, reduced front and rear wings etc etc.

The cost is nothing, the aero has to be massively altered every year and any spare moneys invested in tuning, so it's a silly argument. As well as the above it has happened and is continuing to happen. There will still be aero that needs to become, it's just massively reduced.

The last race was tyres not DRS, the first race DRS failed at it's intended purpose which is a good thing.

Billions have been spent on all number of things that have been taken away, engines are a good example.
 
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You seem to be pinning all your hopes on ground effect. I don't believe this will make any perceivable difference to the viewer (the drivers will probably notice it)...but only time will tell.

With regards to aero - yes they have taken away a lot of the appendages. They have reduced the wing sizes, yet the dependence on aero is MASSIVE. Eddie Jordan kept telling us that there were going to be MASSIVE reductions in aero, during the Winter of 2009/2010; however, this never happened. There was no explanation given for this, but I think its fairly obvious.

In 2010, however, they did reduce the size of the wings. Did it make any perceivable difference to the viewer? Nope. Alonso and Petrov will testify to this.

The problem is that aero research is progressing at such a fast rate, that as quick as the FIA tighten the rules on aero, the teams come up with new methods to regain the lost aero.

Teams will certainly agree to small reductions in aero (which is what has been happening over the last few years), as they are confident that they can regain all the lost aero in a single Winter. To make a massive reduction in aero would seriously compromise all the hard work which the richer teams have put in over the last few years.

The teams who would agree to aero reduction are the back markers, as this will allow them to close the gap on the big teams. Unfortunately for them, the bigger teams are those that have the bigger voting power.

...Oh and in case you are thinking that the FIA can force teams to adhere to the new rules: they tried to force massive budget cuts and the top teams threatened to break away from F1 and start up their own series. The FIA in response had to back down and reach a compromise which the big teams were happy to go along with.

With regards to engines: my understanding is that the FIA never asked the engine makers to go backwards. What they did was freeze development. Thats all. Unfortunately, the same cannot be done to aero development, as aerodynamic computer simulations are all part and parcel of designing a car. It is nigh on impossible to freeze aero development.
 
That isn't what we are seeing we have gone from over 1 second to around0.5 seconds this season, when ground effect comes in fia will have to significantly reduce aero to compensate.

Oh as for 2010 it was explained, double diffuser was reckoned to regain almost all aero that fia wanted rid of and replaced the dirty air. It's now banned and last race they where easily following at 0.5 seconds even without DRS. Once ground effect comes in (which doesn't cause dirty air) fia will have to reduce other aero to keep speed and lap times down, further reducing dirty air, as well as ground effect not being affected by dirty air itself.

So my eggs aren't all in one basket it is a combination of things. Ground effect not causing dirty air, ground effect not needing clean air to work and further reductions in aero. Which has all ready made a difference. Then we just need to sort engines, kers and a few other things out.
 
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sunama said:
Now that the FIA have introduced rules to allow overtaking, people are now complaining that overtaking is too easy.
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They haven't introduced a rule, they've introduced a device that gives the following car a huge advantage down a straight leaving the leading car pretty much completely defenceless in the process.

It's not exciting IMO, as so often so far this season the overtakes we are seeing are becoming a case of 'tail your opponent so you are within 1s at DRS check, the drive past on the straight'. wow, edge of the seat stuff.

All the excitement at China came not from the DRS, but from the tyres and the way everyone is still learning them.
 
Kenai said:
They haven't introduced a rule, they've introduced a device that gives the following car a huge advantage down a straight leaving the leading car pretty much completely defenceless in the process.

It's not exciting IMO, as so often so far this season the overtakes we are seeing are becoming a case of 'tail your opponent so you are within 1s at DRS check, the drive past on the straight'. wow, edge of the seat stuff.

All the excitement at China came not from the DRS, but from the tyres and the way everyone is still learning them.
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Unfortunately for people firmly on this opinion (and I'm not saying I disagree, TBH I'm still undecided on it myself) the BBC just racked up >5mil viewers on Sunday morning for the Chinese grand prix. Executives at FOM must be very pleased.
 
Like I have said many times, we all want overtaking and excitement, but DRS is an artificial way of treating the symptoms and doesn't get to the root of the problem. It can't be called racing when the guy in front has absolutely no defence. Most of those "5mil" viewers will stop watching as soon as there is the usual "boring race" - which there will be when DRS either hasn't been optimised well or can't be used on the track (seems likely in Monaco).

Plus, as Kenai said, much of the overtaking in China was from the tyres, basically, because the teams don't have enough data on the wear rate. If they were all on the same strategy there would have been little, if any, overtaking.
 
if they keep the DRS they should change it so that u can activate it to get on the back of someone for a chance at an outbreak. not to be able to just sail past.


when webber took button in the last few laps, button used his kers to pull away but as soon as webber got to the marker he hit his wing button and just sailed past.

weve seen cars move to the inside to defend but the car using it just drive straight past on the racing line. how can the other driver do anything about that?


CaptainRAVE said:
Plus, as Kenai said, much of the overtaking in China was from the tyres, basically, because the teams don't have enough data on the wear rate. If they were all on the same strategy there would have been little, if any, overtaking.
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we did see hamilton overtaker button, they were both on 3 stoppers.

it depends what drivers do in quali with their tires. next race i can see all of them just doing 1 run to save the tires. look at the advantage it game hamilton, he was in 4th and got to first because of it.
 
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utajoker said:
we did see hamilton overtaker button, they were both on 3 stoppers.

it depends what drivers do in quali with their tires. next race i can see all of them just doing 1 run to save the tires. look at the advantage it game hamilton, he was in 4th and got to first because of it.
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True, but it is still based on data the teams don't have. This will all stop by the end of the season.
 
Kenai said:
They haven't introduced a rule, they've introduced a device that gives the following car a huge advantage down a straight leaving the leading car pretty much completely defenceless in the process.

It's not exciting IMO, as so often so far this season the overtakes we are seeing are becoming a case of 'tail your opponent so you are within 1s at DRS check, the drive past on the straight'. wow, edge of the seat stuff.

.
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And that is no different to the 70's when you would get a huge push being in the slip stream. I'd bet the amount gained between both cases is pretty much the same. You just couldn't visually see it happening with a wing moving.

Yeah they still got a slipstream last year but the effect was so slow you would need twice the length of straights to create decent amounts of overtaking.

I'm not a fan of it but I can see what they tried to do and it's working very well imo.

Anyway from Jakes blog....

Seems Mclaren lucked into the 3 stopper anyway..

"McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh told me on the pit wall after the race that his team had actually got their strategy wrong and wanted to do only two stops."

The power of twitter..

"A good example of the power of Twitter was someone tweeting me a photo of Fernando Alonso's DRS operating outside the prescribed zone. I told the producer what I'd seen and the guys in VT called up the same clip and played it to the nation while Martin and David commented on it."
 
Dunno if these have been posted in the last 35 pages...

First time Car #3 has won a race since Brazil 2004

Felipe Massa - Shanghai
FP1: 6th.
FP2: 6th.
FP3: 6th.
Qualifying: 6th.
Race: 6th
Position in driver's standings: 6th.
Car number: 6

Overtaking stats for China

1. Mark Webber 15
2. Lewis Hamilton 8
3. Michael Schumacher 6
4. Vitaly Petrov 6
5. Sergio Perez 6
6. Pastor Maldonado 6
7. Jenson Button 5
8. Sebastien Buemi 5
9. Nico Rosberg 4
10. Fernando Alonso 4
11. Kamui Kobayashi 4
12. Timo Glock 4
13. Sebastian Vettel 3
14. Felipe Massa 2
15. Nick Heidfeld 2
16. Rubens Barrichello 2
17. Paul di Resta 1
18. Adrian Sutil 1
19. Heikki Kovalainen 1
20. Jerome d'Ambrosio 1
21. Vitantonio Liuzzi 1
 
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