COVID-19 (Coronavirus) discussion

Re: vaccine pros vs cons

The entire argument of some people in here is deeply flawed. It usually goes like this:

"X amount of people died from Covid but only Y died or had complications from the Vaccine". Number X is higher than number Y, so it must be a good thing to be Vaxxed.

Let's assume that the X number is correct, which is dubious -to say the least - because of how the numbers were tallied up (with covid vs of covid).

Let's also assume the people who died were not vaccinated.

Here's the sticking point; we have no idea if their life would be saved by the Vaccine. The data available is laughable by anyone with a brain.

On the flip side of the coin, we know exactly how many vaccine side effects would be stopped by not taking the vaccine (answer: all of them).
 
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Tee Hee Johnson said:
My wife and I have covid at the moment, positive tests on Saturday afternoon.

I was struck first, so came from me… no idea where I got it from.

Wife is having a harder time of it, I do get the yearly jags tho, so perhaps that’s helped me.
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Hope you and the missus make a swift recovery.

I was never jabbed. Had Covid once that I know of in maybe mid 2020. Was in bed for 2 days feeling poorly then back to normal. Never been ill since (touch wood).
 
Freefaller said:
Unfortunately the vaccine itself is now increasingly shown to cause significant long term and adverse effects. So you're ****** either way. You either get covid and take a chance at longer term effects or dose yourself to gills with drugs and take the same roulette.

Humans will survive and overcome, adapt to this just as we have always done. It sucks if you're hit with something that changes your life forever, but I know of people who have caught flu and suffered irreversible effects as a result, as well as someone who had to have the top of their finger amputated because of sepsis having cut himself on some barbed wire.

Humans are resilient - that said it doesn't help appease the bad time that people go through when they're ill. Let's not forget the amount of people suffering chronic conditions which aren't related to covid where the NHS just can't deal with it owing to lack of funding / resources. It's a sad state of affairs. I also hate how the pharma companies basically run medical decisions. If pharma were actually keen on saving lives they would all be non-profits - then I'd be more trusting of them. Sure maybe that makes me a mad tinfoil hat wearer, if so fine, put a label on it, but I'm still not convinced that this was dealt well at all.
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No, those who have significant long term adverse effects from the vaccines are typically reacting to the protein in the vaccine. Which means they're reacting badly to the virus as well. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Anecdotally I know someone who got messed up bad permanently on AZ. After much experimentation, the doctors confirmed he had a bad reaction to the covid spike protein.
 
Tephnos said:
No, those who have significant long term adverse effects from the vaccines are typically reacting to the protein in the vaccine. Which means they're reacting badly to the virus as well. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Anecdotally I know someone who got messed up bad permanently on AZ. After much experimentation, the doctors confirmed he had a bad reaction to the covid spike protein.
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I did say you're ****** either way. :(

Btw do you know that about the protein categorically? It seems the issues are linked with mRNA vaccination according to the BMJ and other reports or is that conflation with something else?
 
Freefaller said:
I did say you're ****** either way. :(

Btw do you know that about the protein categorically? It seems the issues are linked with mRNA vaccination according to the BMJ and other reports or is that conflation with something else?
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The spike protein is well known to be one of the issues from a health point of view. One issue of the mRNA vaccines (and the adenovirus based AZ vaccine) is that the dose (at least originally, it's been reduced multiple times now) was sized on getting sufficient immune response from people with compromised immune systems and also the use of multiple doses. For healthy adults this was likely way more than was required and meant that their cells were producing huge amounts of spike protein, throughout their bodies.
 
mk1_salami said:
Re: vaccine pros vs cons

The entire argument of some people in here is deeply flawed. It usually goes like this:

"X amount of people died from Covid but only Y died or had complications from the Vaccine". Number X is higher than number Y, so it must be a good thing to be Vaxxed.

Let's assume that the X number is correct, which is dubious -to say the least - because of how the numbers were tallied up (with covid vs of covid).

Let's also assume the people who died were not vaccinated.

Here's the sticking point; we have no idea if their life would be saved by the Vaccine. The data available is laughable by anyone with a brain.

On the flip side of the coin, we know exactly how many vaccine side effects would be stopped by not taking the vaccine (answer: all of them).
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As said before I don't care about the vaccine and the harm it caused people that was their own choice for taking something experimental.

I still resent the imposition by so many people on people that didnt chose the same way as them. The sheer level of hate and resentment and malice. Honestly for these people I hope they suffer with sideffects rather than the poor people that were pressured into taking it to keep their jobs etc.
 
It is crazy how quickly people forget, wasn't that long ago you had to have your vaccine card on you to enter some places.

Mine is still in me wallet I think.
 
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Jokester said:
It'll be a surprise to the British Heart Foundation. :cry:
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You mean the bit where they say:

we think the longer-term impact of Covid-19 infection on the heart and circulatory system and extreme and continued disruption to GP and heart care services have played a role.​

It is a surprise to no-one that having a new disease in the population that causes heart damage increases the number of incidents of deaths from heart disease. Fortunately we have a vaccine that significantly reduces the harm :)
 
Mr Jack said:
You mean the bit where they say:

we think the longer-term impact of Covid-19 infection on the heart and circulatory system and extreme and continued disruption to GP and heart care services have played a role.​

It is a surprise to no-one that having a new disease in the population that causes heart damage increases the number of incidents of deaths from heart disease. Fortunately we have a vaccine that significantly reduces the harm :)
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This isn't the claim at all. The claim in the study is that the vaccine reduces heart issues regardless of covid infection. ;)
 
Mr Jack said:
No, it's not.

But, also, usually when you're caught out completely misrepresenting your sources, it's nice to admit it.
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There's nothing in the paper saying they were comparing with people with covid - the comparison was with people before they were vaccinated and those that remained unvaccinated.

Edit: They do say they did sub-group analysis of people with a confirmed covid diagnosis - but I can't see the results reported anywhere.
Edit2: Interestingly, people who remained unvaccinated were significantly more likely to have had covid by the start of the vaccination campaign. I guess the comparison with unvaccinated people probably didn't give them the result they were expecting.
 
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Jokester said:
There's nothing in the paper saying they were comparing with people with covid - the comparison was with people before they were vaccinated and those that remained unvaccinated.
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Almost everyone in the unvaccinated population caught covid, along with a fair proportion of those vaccinated. The population under study includes covid.

As the study says "These findings, in conjunction with the long-term higher risk of severe cardiovascular and other complications associated with COVID-19, offer compelling evidence supporting the net cardiovascular benefit of COVID vaccination."

Jokester said:
They do say they did sub-group analysis of people with a confirmed covid diagnosis - but I can't see the results reported anywhere.
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It's in the supplemental.
 
Mr Jack said:
Almost everyone in the unvaccinated population caught covid, along with a fair proportion of those vaccinated. The population under study includes covid.

As the study says "These findings, in conjunction with the long-term higher risk of severe cardiovascular and other complications associated with COVID-19, offer compelling evidence supporting the net cardiovascular benefit of COVID vaccination."



It's in the supplemental.
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Ah, yes page 38 shows there was no clear association with covid or not... hazard ratio was less than one for both covid or no covid with no clear winner in either case, probably why they didn't put it in the actual study report. But clearly, getting vaccinated reduces risk from covid induced heart issues.
 
Jokester said:
Ah, yes page 38 shows there was no clear association with covid or not... hazard ratio was less than one for both covid or no covid with no clear winner in either case, probably why they didn't put it in the actual study report
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It isn't in the report because it's very low quality data. Only a tiny minority of Covid cases get confirmed.

But clearly, getting vaccinated reduces risk from covid induced heart issues.
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I look forwards to your alternative explanation of the data showing that vaccination significantly reduces the of death a range of heart conditions?
 
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