COVID-19 (Coronavirus) discussion

[SexyGreyFox]

I think some posters, especially in recent days, have forgotten about how dire things were in the UK and around the world from around March '20, until the vaccines began to officially roll out around December '20.

The UK daily death numbers due to covid were horrifying. Thousands, day after, absolutely relentless. Especially when new variants hit our shores.

Without looking up the numbers, UK daily deaths were especially high among those aged 80+, but they didn't tail off dramatically until you looked at those under aged approx 30... But even then, the death rate in the under 30s was raised in that ~8 month spell.

And that's just looking at deaths, ignoring those whose lives were changed dramatically for the worse, due to how badly covid ravaged their body.

Yes, some poor souls had bad reactions to the vaccines, but for the world population vaccines were most definitely the greater good.

However I've said this all along, if I hadn't witnessed it and just been a Tesco Shelf Stacker I also might have thought it was all BS.

 

[GGizmo]

Not an expert but isn't that what old vaccines did like Cowpox and Malaria?
Give a little bit of the disease/virus and the body is able to protect itself.
I thought we'd gone way past that type of vaccine?

I had the AstraZeneca vaccine that was a dead virus that mimicked sars2 covid.

I think the mrna vaccines don't mimic the virus directly. But they look to get the same response from the immune system.

I think the next vaccines and medications will be based on increased knowledge of the immune system.

We're heading in the right direction. There were always going to be some people who have adverse reactions when there is a mass produced new type of vaccine.

 

[Unseul]

Some vaccines are dead bits of the illness. Some are weakened versions.
mRNA gets our bodies to produce specific parts of the disease (preferably something that is very unlikely to evolve quickly, so will stay relevant).

Dead ones are one and done, so the immune response might not be that strong, since it didn't have time to learn much.

Weakened still multiply, so give you more time to build a response (but can also do some more damage). And there's a small risk that your body targets one of the differences, rather than shared attributes (don't quote me on that though).

mRNA has a reasonably predictable lifespan, so we can guess at just how much will be produced. It also means that there's no chance of catching the illness with it.

All of them stimulate your immune system, so can all trigger auto immune responses, such as MS or eczema etc.

 

[Ayahuasca]

I think some posters, especially in recent days, have forgotten about how dire things were in the UK and around the world from around March '20, until the vaccines began to officially roll out around December '20.

No, they didn't forget. They just thought the lockdowns etc were completely unnecessary and were being used as a test to control muh' freedoms.

I mean a recent poster here pretty much said as much, i.e. the lockdowns and distancing were made up on the spot.

There are still prominent figures with large platforms spouting the same thing.

 

[Lean]

You guys are locked into "the science" even though we are into your "anecdotal evidence" phase of the covid inquiry. None of you managed to come up with any scienific argument why young people or children were advised to have an experimental vaccination by our government, even though the risks of having the experimental vaccination outweighed the benefits as the JCVI outlined before the politicians got involved to hit their BS "75% vaccinated". Have a listen to Anna Morris KC for the Covid Vaccine Adverse Reaction and Bereaved Groups. Watch Badenoch claim BMI broadcast false claims that the Government was withholding data, even though everyone in this thread knows the government withheld information or padded the stats they wanted to push. If you guys are unwilling to admit there were mistakes then you are just as bad as the antivaxers and conspiracy theorists.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

You guys are locked into "the science" even though we are into your "anecdotal evidence" phase of the covid inquiry. None of you managed to come up with any scienific argument why young people or children were advised to have an experimental vaccination by our government, even though the risks of having the experimental vaccination outweighed the benefits as the JCVI outlined before the politicians got involved to hit their BS "75% vaccinated". Have a listen to Anna Morris KC for the Covid Vaccine Adverse Reaction and Bereaved Groups. Watch Badenoch claim BMI broadcast false claims that the Government was withholding data, even though everyone in this thread knows the government withheld information or padded the stats they wanted to push. If you guys are unwilling to admit there were mistakes then you are just as bad as the antivaxers and conspiracy theorists.

It wasn't experimental though.
How many times can I tell you that I was part of 50,000 people who were on clinical trials between June 2020 and December 2020 before Margaret Keenan was given hers?
Think of another vaccine where the trials consisted of 50,000 people, there isn't.

Also it was advised for kids to have it but they didn't have to, they weren't forced, that was down to parents.

 

[Unseul]

You guys are locked into "the science" even though we are into your "anecdotal evidence" phase of the covid inquiry. None of you managed to come up with any scienific argument why young people or children were advised to have an experimental vaccination by our government, even though the risks of having the experimental vaccination outweighed the benefits as the JCVI outlined before the politicians got involved to hit their BS "75% vaccinated". Have a listen to Anna Morris KC for the Covid Vaccine Adverse Reaction and Bereaved Groups. Watch Badenoch claim BMI broadcast false claims that the Government was withholding data, even though everyone in this thread knows the government withheld information or padded the stats they wanted to push. If you guys are unwilling to admit there were mistakes then you are just as bad as the antivaxers and conspiracy theorists.

Yes we have, but you're calling at least some of it BS.

I've started reading a bit of the groups paperwork. However, I'm not going through tons of stuff, just to get to something relevant.

So where does Anna Morris talk about the risks and benefits of the vaccine, and why it shouldn't have been given to children?

Also, your scientific evidence that herd immunity is irrelevant with regards to COVID.

 

[Tephnos]

I had the AstraZeneca vaccine that was a dead virus that mimicked sars2 covid.

I think the mrna vaccines don't mimic the virus directly. But they look to get the same response from the immune system.

I think the next vaccines and medications will be based on increased knowledge of the immune system.

We're heading in the right direction. There were always going to be some people who have adverse reactions when there is a mass produced new type of vaccine.

I think all future vaccines will be mRNA-based (there will still be some old style for those that have bad reactions, but those will be a very few). The immune response to mRNA is just better all around (Moderna's trials of a mRNA flu vaccine had a better efficacy rate than current vaccines, for example) and they can be updated and produced very quickly. They are also very versatile and will be the backbone of future cancer treatments I think.

 

[Werewolf]

I think all future vaccines will be mRNA-based (there will still be some old style for those that have bad reactions, but those will be a very few). The immune response to mRNA is just better all around (Moderna's trials of a mRNA flu vaccine had a better efficacy rate than current vaccines, for example) and they can be updated and produced very quickly. They are also very versatile and will be the backbone of future cancer treatments I think.

That's a big one, given that at the moment they try and predict which of the hundreds of flu strains is going to be most prevalent 6 months in advance so it's fairly hit and miss.

Also mrna allows them to create vaccines for things they never managed before, IIRC one of the reasons they were working on them was because it looked like the only way to create a viable ebola vaccine, and IIRC they're trialling it for a malaria vaccine which if it works will save tens of thousands of lives a year and prevent millions of people getting seriously ill every year.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

The UK daily death numbers due to covid were horrifying. Thousands, day after, absolutely relentless. Especially when new variants hit our shores.

Total all cause deaths in the UK for 2020 2021 2022 and 2023 arent much different.

In fact the 1950s-2000 were all similar or higher than 2020 (with a much smaller population), only the 2000s-2020 are a statistical low point.

 

[Unseul]

Total all cause deaths in the UK for 2020 2021 2022 and 2023 arent much different.

In fact the 1950s-2000 were all similar or higher than 2020 (with a much smaller population), only the 2000s-2020 are a statistical low point.

Check the monthly rates. That's what lockdown was there for. Hospitals were overwhelmed, without lockdown there would have been collapse.

With lockdowns and vaccines, you'd expect the death rates to get more within normal rates across a year (and multiple years).

 

[Minusorange]

I can't tell if she's actually stating it as a fact or it's just a regurgitated opinion of that specific new administration (obviously need to toe the line of it being political or not)

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

Check the monthly rates. That's what lockdown was there for. Hospitals were overwhelmed, without lockdown there would have been collapse.

With lockdowns and vaccines, you'd expect the death rates to get more within normal rates across a year (and multiple years).

Oh im not doubting that people died, just that all cause death rates haven't dropped back to the previous years rates of the 00s and 10s as you would expect.

 

[GGizmo]

The interesting thing about the vaccines in the long covid community is whether to have it or not.

Because for some people the vaccine helps clear up any long covid symptoms. While for others it makes them worse.

It's the same with medications. Some meds work for some but not for others.

I think they are trying to find out why. So far there is multiple immune reactions to covid, vaccines and treatment medications.

So any research they do in understanding the immune system will benefit us all.

 

[Simon]

It wasn't experimental though.
How many times can I tell you that I was part of 50,000 people who were on clinical trials between June 2020 and December 2020 before Margaret Keenan was given hers?
Think of another vaccine where the trials consisted of 50,000 people, there isn't.

Also it was advised for kids to have it but they didn't have to, they weren't forced, that was down to parents.

You literally were nothing in the trial. A glass of water would have more impact

 

[platinum87]

Sorry, I'm unsure with the issue of quoting scientific research? Is it not better than quoting people who've simply pulled stuff from some orifice or another? Or worse, try and pretend that some official body made a claim, then refuse to back it up when asked to.

Science can get it wrong, but unless you think there's some sort of international conspiracy, where scientists from many backgrounds are all working together, and faking the data of millions of subjects, then the science here is fairly cut and dry for the most part.

When people say, "the science", they are making a conclusion then trying to find evidence to support it.

This is the phrasing on the TV repeated over and over, anyone who says anything different, who questions any data, is banned/hidden/insulted etc.

Not directing this at you or something, but generally if any science becomes in anyway political, politics wins 100% of the time.

SO, if the politics change, the science will change, so watch the USA, now trump is there, the science will now change.

 

[Hagar]

Oh im not doubting that people died, just that all cause death rates haven't dropped back to the previous years rates of the 00s and 10s as you would expect.

This country is larger than in the 00's and 10's, also if they keep cutting benefits like winter fuel allowance without evidence it will continue.

 

[GGizmo]

I can't tell if she's actually stating it as a fact or it's just a regurgitated opinion of that specific new administration (obviously need to toe the line of it being political or not)

I think these issues can only be decided based on the 'mostly likely' principle.

Both the FBI and CIA are saying it's the most likely narrative.

FBI chief Christopher Wray says China lab leak most likely

Other US agencies have come to different conclusions from the FBI on how the pandemic began.

www.bbc.co.uk

Covid-19: CIA says lab leak most likely source of outbreak

But the US intelligence agency cautions it has "low confidence" in this new determination.

www.bbc.co.uk

I just want the truth. If it's been man made or manipulated then we have a good chance of understanding it and getting treatments faster.

 

[Unseul]

When people say, "the science", they are making a conclusion then trying to find evidence to support it.

This is the phrasing on the TV repeated over and over, anyone who says anything different, who questions any data, is banned/hidden/insulted etc.

Not directing this at you or something, but generally if any science becomes in anyway political, politics wins 100% of the time.

SO, if the politics change, the science will change, so watch the USA, now trump is there, the science will now change.

I don't care about the TV, I don't care what the politicians say. Show me the papers.

Multiple countries, millions of subjects, the science doesn't change for politics.

Politicians can make bad decisions and try and fudge the science to make it work, but that doesn't change the science itself, they're just ignoring it. Politicians have to juggle other factors when it comes to applying science. Total lockdown would have been the best way to ensure COVID didn't spread, but it's clearly not the best thing for the country. Timing and details of lockdowns and other schemes etc are where science and politics butt heads, but whilst science can become politicised, it's generally easier to see it's bad science when it comes to the studies and papers.

You literally were nothing in the trial. A glass of water would have more impact

Congratulations on showing your ignorance to how these trials work.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

This country is larger than in the 00's and 10's, also if they keep cutting benefits like winter fuel allowance without evidence it will continue.

1960-2000 were similar total deaths in the 600k range, was the population bigger in the 1960s, 70s 80s and 90s and what winter fuel allowance was available during that time period?

UK annual number of deaths 2021 | Statista

There were 667,479 deaths in the United Kingdom in 2021, compared with 689,629 in 2020.

www.statista.com