Cyberpunk 2077 Ultra performance

[VincentHanna]

I am now close to 70 hours in. Not many blue icons left at this point. All gigs seem to be done. Only yellow icons now are cars I have to buy, which there is about 10 left. I can probably get that done by soon by just crafting to make money. I think tomorrow I will just finish the game off.

I really am enjoying it, even though it is not as good as I expected.

I'm 63 hours played and similar, though I do still have a few side missions to do

That's a fair summary. Though

 

[VincentHanna]

-Bugs that haven't been fixed to this day

Well I hardly expected them to fix lots over Christmas.

 

[Gregster]

The first thing I had to say when I enabled DLSS was "EWWWWW Blurry!". Then I hijacked a car and was instantly thrown out of any immersion thanks to taillights and tires having ghosting(viewable on stills so, not a monitor problem). To be fair to DLSS, the blur can be mitigated by Nvidia's own sharpening filter and the issues with ghosting has so far been isolated to just CP2077 and haven't been present in the 2 other games I've tried. That said, if issues pop out within 5 seconds of use then I would say the tech has some ways to go but I like the idea of it as long as people don't label it something it's not.

Not sure if it is me but genuinely, not noticed that with DLSS on but maybe that is me and it is there but genuinely not seen it. I generally get sucked in to a game when I am enjoying it and don't notice discrepencies. I do feel the generation of me being a 70s kid helps and playing space invaders and pac man to what we are playing now has made me more tollerable I guess. On the same point though, it is great seeing this progression and I want more of it before I pop my cloggs

 

[VincentHanna]

The first thing I had to say when I enabled DLSS was "EWWWWW Blurry!". Then I hijacked a car and was instantly thrown out of any immersion thanks to taillights and tires having ghosting(viewable on stills so, not a monitor problem). To be fair to DLSS, the blur can be mitigated by Nvidia's own sharpening filter and the issues with ghosting has so far been isolated to just CP2077 and haven't been present in the 2 other games I've tried. That said, if issues pop out within 5 seconds of use then I would say the tech has some ways to go but I like the idea of it as long as people don't label it something it's not.

What is your native resolution and which DLSS are you using (Performance/balanced/quality etc)

 

[EastCoastHandle]

Well I hardly expected them to fix lots over Christmas.

That maybe true however, since they are leveraging several class actions lawsuits the game usually gets tossed to the bin when it comes to continues development do to them having to answer to whatever the judge allows for discovery and other inquires that potentially are subpoena, etc. More then likely they will have to prove they fixed stuff, that wasn't fix, etc. So they have to be very careful moving forward which has the potential to severely slow down any "fixes" they may have intended to release. IE: Introductions of more bugs do to the release, etc. can and will be used against them. And so on and so on.


To me, the game is toast. Because if it's shown and perhaps proven in deposition that CB2077 was in a ready state for just Nvidia gpus, for example, could be very damaging. When this game was suppose to be a multi-platform release. Not saying that is their tactic though.

 

[TNA]

Not sure if it is me but genuinely, not noticed that with DLSS on but maybe that is me and it is there but genuinely not seen it. I generally get sucked in to a game when I am enjoying it and don't notice discrepencies. I do feel the generation of me being a 70s kid helps and playing space invaders and pac man to what we are playing now has made me more tollerable I guess. On the same point though, it is great seeing this progression and I want more of it before I pop my cloggs

I think it is likely because you sit so far away from your monitor.

I'm 63 hours played and similar, though I do still have a few side missions to do

That's a fair summary. Though

Yeah. I can’t wait for more. I hope they get on to making a sequel ASAP. What they should do is keep the same city and build on it. Make more buildings accessible etc.

 

[zx128k]

Yes and no - Quake 2 RTX is a good demonstration that we are much closer to it being feasible at an acceptable quality for gaming than a lot of people allow for - sure it won't compete with a fully featured offline renderer but it can still produce good results for video game levels of fidelity and one of the advantages is if implemented properly then as faster hardware becomes available the quality can increase even in older RT titles that use a fully path traced approach to implementation.

There are a lot of limits to my artistic abilities as well as many areas the Quake 2 engine just holds things back and stuff like caustics in Quake 2 RTX are fast approximates and/or incomplete implementations because the stock maps simply make no use of some of the features but it can do a lot better than people allow:

EDIT: If I get some free time later on today I will try and produce something like that scene in the video you linked to https://youtu.be/LAsnQoBUG4Q?t=531 with the Quake 2 path tracer to demonstrate both strengths and weaknesses of it.

Full pathtracing is photo realisitic graphics and requires a server with thousands of GPU's to render offline. The picture you have provided is garbage, a poor quality output.

Better example would be this video.

Having a game that could do this type of rendering at full quality path tracing would require cloud computing. There are no AAA path tracing games for a reason. AMD 6000 series cards would still be the worst performers.

 

[nvidiamd]

Full pathtracing is photo realisitic graphics and requires a server with thousands of GPU's to render offline. The picture you have provided is garbage, a poor quality output.

Better example would be this video.

Wow let's compare what one can do with Quake engine vs what one can do with modern tools. If his picture is garbage, why don't you show us how you can create a better picture in Quake II?

 

[Wrinkly]

I think it is likely because you sit so far away from your monitor.

At his age the nose is pressed hard up against it.

 

[imginy]

+1

That is the why I have been happy with my monitor and not been in a rush to upgrade as I only play single player games. Only upgrade that is worth it is OLED and the smallest one available right now is too big for me. Hopefully we get a 40" one next year.


Agreed. I like off better too in that image. But I am sure one can easily find many shots where On is much better also.

Hey, you should also consider the full array QLEDS, they are great for gaming, A lot of People seem to ignore them on here because they didn't get as much advertising as a gaming screen.

They had VRR a full year before LG but was ignored.
The input lag is just 7ms.
The biggest game changer is the, game motion plus settings, giving you the perfect motion and frames being made into 240hz. (I use 5/5)

Pushing out higher nitts for the HDR games and don't age over time if you plan on using it a lot.

One thing to note is that the ones smaller than 55" are normally fake (not same as the 55'65"75")

Ya can get some crazy deals on them as well like 70% off release price as well. If ya willing to be year behind.

 

[Grim5]

Hey, you should also consider the full array QLEDS, they are great for gaming, A lot of People seem to ignore them on here because they didn't get as much advertising as a gaming screen.

They had VRR a full year before LG but was ignored.
The input lag is just 7ms.
The biggest game changer is the, game motion plus settings, giving you the perfect motion and frames being made into 240hz. (I use 5/5)

Pushing out higher nitts for the HDR games and don't age over time if you plan on using it a lot.

One thing to note is that the ones smaller than 55" are normally fake (not same as the 55'65"75")

Ya can get some crazy deals on them as well like 70% off release price as well. If ya willing to be year behind.

You forgot to mention one problem didn't you

That when you play games on a QLED that full array of lights you so love to advertise is mostly disabled leading to extremely poor contrast ratios. If you want to play with your full array enabled so that you get proper contrast, you must play outside game mode and enjoy 60ms input

If you are buying an LED just for gaming don't get QLED you are spending money when the main feature of the TV is almost completely disabled by actually playing games, save your money and get a cheaper TV

 

[Rroff]

Full pathtracing is photo realisitic graphics and requires a server with thousands of GPU's to render offline. The picture you have provided is garbage, a poor quality output.

Better example would be this video.

Having a game that could do this type of rendering at full quality path tracing would require cloud computing. There are no AAA path tracing games for a reason. AMD 6000 series cards would still be the worst performers.

A lot of that is my limits as an artist - sadly not one of my strengths - and the limits of the Quake 2 engine despite a pretty frontend a lot of the geometry limits, etc. are the same as 1997 (and I haven't got around to adding high res ejecting brass) - what I'm trying to demonstrate is that path tracing can viably be used in games to give a significant graphical boost over traditional rendering - even if we can't hit the fidelity yet of a fully offline ray tracer.

The take away from my screenshot though - you can't simulate that level of reflection and refraction - which is fully real time and fully reflecting the scene (even if the geometry limits are warping it incorrectly) - with traditional techniques and the rendering of chrome is difficult to achieve, especially when the scene is in motion.

The nice thing as well is if you build a game around these technologies down the line when the hardware performance is there it is trivial to increase the quality via increased ray count, bounces and more advanced caustics, etc. without having to go in and redevelop the game.

EDIT: Caustics in Quake 2 use a fast approximate implementation and is incomplete so stuff like that video isn't possible but that was largely for time rather than for performance reasons - nowhere in the original Quake 2 maps make effective use of such a feature - there is a 3rd party effort to improve on that ongoing but they have a long way to go yet.

 

[no_1_dave]

Members of the jury have you reached a verdict?
We have, your Honor.
What say you?
We the jury, in the case of CB2077 & it's use of RT and DLSS versus the Consumer find the defendant GUILTY:
-Misrepresenting RT as "life like" and "Accurate"
-DLSS for blurring the image quality to improve frame rates
-Bugs that haven't been fixed to this day
-Missed expectations and lying to investors
-Missed expectations and lying to consumers

Thank you, Jury, for your service today. Court is adjourned.

To me, the game is toast. Because if it's shown and perhaps proven in deposition that CB2077 was in a ready state for just Nvidia gpus, for example, could be very damaging. When this game was suppose to be a multi-platform release. Not saying that is their tactic though.

So why are you still here posting your drivel?

For somebody who doesn't like the game you appear to be spending a lot of time posting about it. Posting exactly the same things over & over again in multiple different threads.

I'm starting to think you suffer from histrionic personality disorder

 

[EastCoastHandle]

So why are you still here posting your drivel?

For somebody who doesn't like the game you appear to be spending a lot of time posting about it. Posting exactly the same things over & over again in multiple different threads.

I'm starting to think you suffer from histrionic personality disorder

The same reason you are posting your drivel.
It's not hard to ignore someone who you vehemently disagree with. Therefore, for someone who doesn't like what I post you spend a lot of time replying to it. Posting exactly the same things over and over again.
blah, blah, blah. And the answer to that question is all the same...for the exact same reason you replied.


Because when we look at the forest before the trees Insomniac Games was able to achieve something that CDPR failed to do. 4K 60FPS with RT in an open world/sandboxed game. WITH hardware less performant then the 3090.

There is 'your' holy grail for this level of gaming ray tracing.
https://twitter.com/insomniacgames/status/1336698057900007424?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1336698057900007424|twgr^share_0|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/9/22165569/spider-man-miles-morales-60fps-raytracing-new-mode-performance-rt

 

[zx128k]

A lot of that is my limits as an artist - sadly not one of my strengths - and the limits of the Quake 2 engine despite a pretty frontend a lot of the geometry limits, etc. are the same as 1997 (and I haven't got around to adding high res ejecting brass) - what I'm trying to demonstrate is that path tracing can viably be used in games to give a significant graphical boost over traditional rendering - even if we can't hit the fidelity yet of a fully offline ray tracer.

The take away from my screenshot though - you can't simulate that level of reflection and refraction - which is fully real time and fully reflecting the scene (even if the geometry limits are warping it incorrectly) - with traditional techniques and the rendering of chrome is difficult to achieve, especially when the scene is in motion.

The nice thing as well is if you build a game around these technologies down the line when the hardware performance is there it is trivial to increase the quality via increased ray count, bounces and more advanced caustics, etc. without having to go in and redevelop the game.

EDIT: Caustics in Quake 2 use a fast approximate implementation and is incomplete so stuff like that video isn't possible but that was largely for time rather than for performance reasons - nowhere in the original Quake 2 maps make effective use of such a feature - there is a 3rd party effort to improve on that ongoing but they have a long way to go yet.

Reflection and refraction have to have a limited amount of bounces. Enough so it looks good but does not kill performance.

This is why games like Cyberpunk 2077 will use a hybrid approach. Both raster and RT. If a game went full RT which is what path tracing like quake rtx and minecraft do, then you will likely run into performance issues in complex graphics like in Cyberpunk 2077. Minecraft and Quake RTX are simple graphics wise, reflections and refractions can be controlled. So can bounce lighting, most likely limited to two bounces. Bounce lighting is a big cost in Quake RTX's frame budget. Imagine what would happen if you had the big glass areas in Cyberpunk 2077 and you had lots of objects reflecting other objects without a limit. The performance would be offline only. I think games like Cyberpunk 2077 are using RT at the limits of hardware already. They are using RT and raster for performance reasons. Also called hybrid rendering. That way developers can control the costly RT effects by using raster as needed. The higher the frame rate per second the less RT that is used and the more raster. Hardware performance sets the point with which both are balanced.

Lighting, shadows and GI are covered in this video for Unreal Engine. For GI note the use of Final Gather which is less accurate but less costly in frame time.

 

[Gregster]

I think it is likely because you sit so far away from your monitor.

Could well be and cheeky ****** @Wrinkly

 

[Rroff]

This is why games like Cyberpunk 2077 will use a hybrid approach. Both raster and RT. If a game went full RT which is what path tracing like quake rtx and minecraft do, then you will likely run into performance issues in complex graphics like in Cyberpunk 2077. Minecraft and Quake RTX are simple graphics wise, reflections and refractions can be controlled. So can bounce lighting, most likely limited to two bounces. Bounce lighting is a big cost in Quake RTX's frame budget. Imagine what would happen if you had the big glass areas in Cyberpunk 2077 and you had lots of objects reflecting other objects without a limit. The performance would be offline only. I think games like Cyberpunk 2077 are using RT at the limits of hardware already. They are using RT and raster for performance reasons. Also called hybrid rendering. That way developers can control the costly RT effects by using raster as needed. The higher the frame rate per second the less RT that is used and the more raster. Hardware performance sets the point with which both are balanced.

This is not true (at least not at the level you are implying) - the implementation in Quake 2 does not significantly slow down with scene complexity and performance in Quake 2 RTX doesn't use optimisations around simplified graphics as the implementation in Minecraft does. You can increase scene complexity in Quake 2 RTX by "64x" with lots of reflective, etc. objects and it will only reduce rendering performance by 1-3%. (The exception here is that caustics for instance use a fast approximate simulation - increasing the complexity of things like the caustic simulation would come with a bigger performance impact).

If you look at my test room screenshots (example below) it has large areas of glass on both sides, a large mirror and multiple glass, chrome and other reflective objects and is only 1.5% slower than the stock Quake 2 maps if that.

Typically the performance cost of rendering a scene in CP2077 with rasterisation maxed and RT maxed exceeds the impact it would have of rendering it via Quake 2's path tracer albeit the cost here comes at the constrained ray budget not being sufficient to remove noise from specular lighting to an ideal level.

EDIT: You can adjust the reflection/refraction bounces between 1 and 8, default 2, in Quake 2 RTX with only a moderate performance hit - obviously there is a point you don't get things rendered that would require more bounces to capture after a point hence the limited performance impact of increased scene complexity but there are few instances where that matters for a video game even though it would be nice to have higher.

It has its limits and there in some way to go yet to get ideal results with an ideal low level of visual noise from using denoising approaches to make up for limited ray budgets but the path tracer in Quake 2 RTX is much more than people give it credit for because they judge it from the stock Quake 2 maps.

 

[Phixsator]

Not sure if it is me but genuinely, not noticed that with DLSS on but maybe that is me and it is there but genuinely not seen it. I generally get sucked in to a game when I am enjoying it and don't notice discrepencies. I do feel the generation of me being a 70s kid helps and playing space invaders and pac man to what we are playing now has made me more tollerable I guess. On the same point though, it is great seeing this progression and I want more of it before I pop my cloggs

I think that's great, believe me, I wish I could ignore things like that, but I can't, it's like VA black trails, it sticks out like a one-armed stripper at a bachelor party would. On the other side of things, we got RT, where I'm completely oblivious. I can see it if I compare shots or look for it but I don't notice it at all during normal play sessions.

What is your native resolution and which DLSS are you using (Performance/balanced/quality etc)

Native is 1440p, DLSS preset doesn't matter, it happens on all but Quality is what I use.

 

[imginy]

[

You forgot to mention one problem didn't you

That when you play games on a QLED that full array of lights you so love to advertise is mostly disabled leading to extremely poor contrast ratios. If you want to play with your full array enabled so that you get proper contrast, you must play outside game mode and enjoy 60ms input

If you are buying an LED just for gaming don't get QLED you are spending money when the main feature of the TV is almost completely disabled by actually playing games, save your money and get a cheaper TV

Just an FYI I'm not advertising it's a full array in every post, there is 2 completely different TVs with the exact same name that were released 6 months apart and are the model numbers swap over depending what region.

Just easier to say I have the 2018 Q8 full array.

Also a massive lol at the gaming feature like freesync and gsync beiing usless and HDR 2000 nitts and game motion plus at only 15ms total and all the other stuff all totally useless.

No wonder I have u on ignore, I worry one day I might read something u write and take it in.

 

[Rroff]

I think that's great, believe me, I wish I could ignore things like that, but I can't, it's like VA black trails, it sticks out like a one-armed stripper at a bachelor party would. On the other side of things, we got RT, where I'm completely oblivious. I can see it if I compare shots or look for it but I don't notice it at all during normal play sessions.

It mostly doesn't bother me but yeah I notice the issues with DLSS as well - anything that is thin and vertical has VA motion blur like trails and sometimes if you move parallel with a scene which is periodically interrupted i.e. going along a road with fence posts or something you can see the details change slightly after each interruption not 100% rendering the same scene but something close to it.

I can just about accept having DLSS quality on in this game so as to turn everything up to ultra but I'm not 100% happy about it.