Degree Apprenticeship vs Computer Science from Top 20

platypus · 10 Dec 2015 at 14:26

Trojan Horse said:
I don't really think that better qualified/better educated people are synonymous with 'good people'. I've met some great people that are in high places, low places, without qualifications or top grades - A lot of them still make, what I like to call, bank. But more qualified/A* people are more likely to be arrogant and egotastic though (at least from my travels).

Just how well travelled are you at 18?

platypus · 10 Dec 2015 at 14:26

dowie said:
if he's unsure then doing a good degree probably leaves him more options than choosing an apprentiship

Yep this is very true.

bJN · 10 Dec 2015 at 14:30

dowie said:
if he's unsure what he wants to do then doing a good degree probably leaves him more options than choosing an apprenticeship

I whole-heartedly agree with you. I must have had a thought in my head and forgot to type it, but I wanted to say is that the apprenticeship is something you have to want to do. It does require a lot of work. It does require a lot of self-motivation. You really need to want to do it. If you can manage that, it will be very rewarding at the end of it.

And yet at the end you still walk out with a relevant degree and debt free with five years of industry experience. I think that's a good price to pay as opposed to £40-50k in debt? I do get what you mean though, the Comp Science degree would arguably open more doors to start with.

(But thanks for pointing that out, I would have completely glossed over without noticing I'd missed that bit!)

dowie · 10 Dec 2015 at 14:37

I think there are plenty of alternatives out there too - the apprenticeships as per the thread subject if you're keen on an area and want to get started...

There is also no reason why people can't get started on something similar on their own initiative - for example part time studying - Birkbeck, the Open University and the London International program all offer the chance at a degree while working. The London International programs certainly seem to be a no frills approach and is also the cheapest, you can get a University of London degree for something like 4k in total while you work - tis mostly a study by yourself then sit the exams affair, the OU has comprehensive study materials and tutorials and Birkbeck has regular lectures like a normal university course albeit in the evening. Someone could easily get an entry level role in some field and study via one of these programs in their spare time.

Trojan Horse · 10 Dec 2015 at 14:58

drakioned said:
University isn't a homogeneous experience. The graduate who got mediocre grades, went to a mediocre university and drank their way through a degree isn't going to have the same exit prospects as someone who made the most of being at a higher education institution.

Is Newcastle something that's considered to be a 'mediocre' university?

I think that I should aim high and reap the rewards. University looks like the way to go for me, a more prestigious and more fulfilling environment where I have time and space to decide where I want to go. I suppose a more respected university is always going to be a more respected university, in all walks of life. I might want to go into Finance or banking and I think that's more of a possibility with a solid degree from a good university, than a vocational degree from a mediocre one.

Also, the student loan is probably one of the best and only legitimate reasons to take out a loan, is it not? It's not as though I'm going to be taking out a loan to go on a holiday, or to buy myself a new TV, my education is priority and so I don't think you can have a better reason for taking out a loan. It's also a low-interest loan that gets paid as if it were tax.

Obviously, financially, the Apprenticeship seems to be the best solution (at least in the short term), but I have no need to rush off and start work, I would rather build a stronger academic background and keep all the doors open, finance, tech start ups, whatever, I don't want to do D&T only to find out that it won't pass through the HR filters of the large firms and whatnot.

Either option seems quite attractive and I have been progressed onto the Interview stages of the CapGemini Apprenticeship scheme so I believe that If I don't make the grades for Uni, entering the apprenticeship would be the next best thing. I'm not going to deny the offer, should they offer me it, as it does look good and a much better option than if I were to just enter and pay for a lesser Uni. What would be the best of both worlds though, would be to do a Sponsored degree, as in the company pays for my course and I sign a contract to work with them for 'x' number of years afterwards. Cap used to do this beforehand, but replaced it with the Apprenticeship instead. Do you think that I should bother asking them about a sponsored degree, as they had done it before so obviously it brought value to their company, or do you think I should just leave it as it is?

^ Would give me the flexibility and the stronger academic background that I would want, so it really is the best of both worlds

Also for more info on what I mean by a sponsored degree, see here - http://www.ncl.ac.uk/sage/study/undergrad/sevcon/index.htm

anything I don't mind · 10 Dec 2015 at 17:01

Only time I would recommend a degree for comp Sci is if you want to work in a sector that requires it. I failed high school in south Africa and still managed to work in IT and hopefully will be keep progressing. I say this in every thread like this. If you are going to pay for the degree rather get electrical engineering and still go work in IT if that is what you want to do. That way you still have a degree that can get you all types of jobs if IT sector dries up and you still have that degree on your cv if a job requires it.

danielanthony · 10 Dec 2015 at 17:32

Unfortunately as IT doesn't have chartered status like accountancy or engineering, you get a lot of people thinking that they're good just because they've held onto a job in IT (infrastructure) for quite some time. Some of the most incompetent infrastructure IT folk I know have been working for 20+ years but have managed to blag themselves into one post after another. Because they're seen as experienced, probably.

Degree's and industry certs help overcome this to a certain extent as they show you are aware of best practices and not some cowboy on a power trip.

Software engineers tend to be more about the academic qualifications, not having a great degree from a great uni is much more of a negative amongst the programmers I've known. But then, great programmers are more likely to be uber geeks and tend to devote both their working and private lives to coding.

Just my observations.

Trojan Horse · 10 Dec 2015 at 17:58

Anyone heard of the JP Morgan IT degree apprenticeship? I've just secureed an interview for that up coming.

http://careers.jpmorgan.com/careers/programs/technology-degree-apprenticeship

dowie · 10 Dec 2015 at 18:08

well it sounds like the other apprenticeships you've mentioned, with the same degree... albeit at J.P Morgan

good brand name to have on a CV

depends what you want to do... if you want to work in IT in a bank then that could be a good place to start

Trojan Horse · 10 Dec 2015 at 20:10

dowie said:
well it sounds like the other apprenticeships you've mentioned, with the same degree... albeit at J.P Morgan

good brand name to have on a CV

depends what you want to do... if you want to work in IT in a bank then that could be a good place to start

its with some strange uni and a huge dock of a pay check (13k on JP vs 16.5k with Cap)

i think caps much better for this haha

dowie · 10 Dec 2015 at 20:24

I don't think you should worry about the few grand difference between the low base salaries on offer here... if you were to go for the apprenticeship then you'd probably want to take a longer term view on what is available career wise with each employer.

Trojan Horse · 10 Dec 2015 at 20:58

dowie said:
I don't think you should worry about the few grand difference between the low base salaries on offer here... if you were to go for the apprenticeship then you'd probably want to take a longer term view on what is available career wise with each employer.

The cap ones much closer to home, the cap uni is Aston and BPP uni of nothing with JP Morgan, cap's programme seems much better, for me anyway.

Trojan Horse · 10 Dec 2015 at 21:13

Moses said:
BPP is respected. It's a private uni, and relatively new. Well, I know a little bit about its offerings when it comes to law... for that's it's definitively respected/is where some very good firms send their grads to do the LPC, etc.

OT here but do you know of any Sponsored Degree programmes for SWE?

Dunks · 10 Dec 2015 at 21:14

Moses said:
BPP is respected. It's a private uni, and relatively new. Well, I know a little bit about its offerings when it comes to law... for that's it's definitively respected/is where some very good firms send their grads to do the LPC, etc.

This, GF did her LPC there and it's pretty well respected. I think all but one (?) magic circle firms use BPP.

dowie · 10 Dec 2015 at 21:24

I used their material for SII certs/FSA exams years ago... though I'm not sure about their reputation for undergrad degrees. Providing tutorials and materials for professional qualifications is rather different to providing undergraduate degree programs.

Again if you were interested in pursuing an MSc later I'd check in advance that this sort of degree program would be acceptable.

Trojan Horse · 10 Dec 2015 at 22:10

dowie said:
I used their material for SII certs/FSA exams years ago... though I'm not sure about their reputation for undergrad degrees. Providing tutorials and materials for professional qualifications is rather different to providing undergraduate degree programs.

Again if you were interested in pursuing an MSc later I'd check in advance that this sort of degree program would be acceptable.

So I've been scouring LinkedIn to see what former Computing Science graduates from Aston are doing... and they're not really doing that well. Some are bartenders, some are on 20k software dev roles, I haven't seen a big company in about 30 profiles so far... perhaps Aston is not really a place valued so highly by employers (also all these guys had 1sts/2.1s)?

dowie · 10 Dec 2015 at 22:26

But they were presumably doing a normal 3 year degree through Aston rather than this apprenticeship?

Trojan Horse · 10 Dec 2015 at 22:33

dowie said:
But they were presumably doing a normal 3 year degree through Aston rather than this apprenticeship?

Yes. I was looking through all of Aston's CS dept. undergraduate courses, CS, CS with Business, etc. Searched these courses into Linked in and the grads out of there don't fare too well.

Some of them had internships at Cap and then went off to work in 'retail'.

I can't really look at data with the Apprenticeship, as people have barely started their first year, let alone graduate, this is the next best thing in understanding Astons reputation.

Searching through recent grads with the University of Newcastle, those with 2.1+ fare really well, the ones I've seen are earning 50k 4-5 years after graduation.

dowie · 10 Dec 2015 at 22:42

Well Exeter offer it too don't they? Though that is worrying that people haven't managed to convert their placement year/internship into an actual job with that same employer.

Why is your alternative option of going to university for 3 years just Newcastle - surely you apply to six different universities through UCAS?

Buffman · 10 Dec 2015 at 22:42

that apprenticeship sounds good money and good commute.

dont let ocuk put you off tho, a good degree at a good unī will put your foot thru doors otherwise inaccessible (depends on industry, im in engineering and its almost a requirement now).
also remember if you earn around 35k student loam payments are about 200 quid , on the old system at least.... which stings!

dont go to a crap uni to do a crap degree tho. thats what happens to the butthurt uni go-ers