Degree Apprenticeship vs Computer Science from Top 20
- Thread starter Trojan Horse
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Soldato
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if you fancy being an academic then go to the good one or go to the good one if you fancy a better quality education and better qualified people to mingle with and learn from. Otherwise if you want to earn money and learn on the job whilst still getting a half decent degree then go that route.
both ways are experiences but of a different kind but you might end up at the same end point. How do you see yourself ?
both ways are experiences but of a different kind but you might end up at the same end point. How do you see yourself ?
Think if I was doing it all again I think the apprenticeships offered by a lot of the big companies now would be an appealing prospect over a uni > grad scheme path.
Having sat on assessment panels for some these apprentice positions it's a little scary how 'grown up' the candidates are compared to when I was that age!
As for moving around the industry/companies later on, as has been said a lot of the time (role dependent) the details on your degree matter less, I don't even meet the requirements to get on the grad scheme for my current employer
Having sat on assessment panels for some these apprentice positions it's a little scary how 'grown up' the candidates are compared to when I was that age!
As for moving around the industry/companies later on, as has been said a lot of the time (role dependent) the details on your degree matter less, I don't even meet the requirements to get on the grad scheme for my current employer
Soldato
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Go Apprenticeship. I got a dgree from UEA, is that a RG uni? What is RG anyway?
I only got (well had) £9,000 debt, it got me my first junior job but is totally worthless now, after 10+ yrs exp.
If I had my time again and if I wasn't forced to university because of New Labours "E£Education, Education, Education" policy I would have gone an apprenticeship, but it wasn't an option in my era. You had to have a degree or you were destined to work at McDonalds. Now degrees are worthless.
I only got (well had) £9,000 debt, it got me my first junior job but is totally worthless now, after 10+ yrs exp.
If I had my time again and if I wasn't forced to university because of New Labours "E£Education, Education, Education" policy I would have gone an apprenticeship, but it wasn't an option in my era. You had to have a degree or you were destined to work at McDonalds. Now degrees are worthless.
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I don't really think that better qualified/better educated people are synonymous with 'good people'. I've met some great people that are in high places, low places, without qualifications or top grades - A lot of them still make, what I like to call, bank. But more qualified/A* people are more likely to be arrogant and egotastic though (at least from my travels).
Starting on 16.5k and moving up, for 5 years, means by the end of 5 years, I will be a single dude without responsibilities, and some money in the bank. I think I would be able to afford a Masters, be mature enough for a Masters, and be able to carry it out to a high level. It's also that, if Top places would consider this degree to be suitable for them, then it'll help reinforce the idea that the Digital & Tech solutions is going to be (sort of) respected. More importantly to me, if I wanted to go down the route of finance/cherry picking places, I probably could if I had a Masters from a top instution. I mean, I don't want to go into finance, but in 5 years my opinion could change, having that degree of freedom is what I want.
RG just stands for Russell Group, I just use that term synonymously with Redbrick to mean "well-reputed" or something along those lines.
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Edinburgh and Glasgow
Better qualified/educated people is not synonymous with "good people' or better workers, but the 2 are highly correlated to the point where many employers will simply look at Degree classification/awarding university and highest qualification received as a quick filter. There is a good reason why many grad scheme will just look at the top 10 Unis and only those graduates with a 2:1 or above - if they are over subscribed then why waste time looking for the diamond in the rough? Sure there are many great talented people that someone how screwed up their academic career, personal issues etc. made them fail many exams, or had to stay at home look after sick family member which meant they attended some ex-polytechnic instead of a Russell group. The problem is, it takes time and resources to find these people much easier and cheaper to risk loosing a few diamonds when there are plenty of talented people that make the cut.
he prestige of the university is more than purely the name you see. Courses at a top university are demonstrably harder than at a lower tied school, course work more rigorous, work load more demanding, subjects studied to deeper levels, high expectations of quality in respect to examination, course work, projects etc. For example, a final year publication in C.S. form a top uni will often lead to academic publications in journals and conferences, or lead onto further research at MSc or PhD level. Those form a lower tied university may be much more vocational in development.
That doesn't mean the quality o education at lower ties school is worse, in fact it can often be better. My impression of RG unis is it is often a sink or swim kind of atmosphere and you might find better support for struggling students at an ex-poly. But that just goes on to further signify the expected quality of graduates from the top unis, those who struggled are more liekly to have dropped out, changed to easier subjected, changed unis. However, there will be area where to tier unis will have better resources for teaching, or smaller class sizes etc.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06r5d03
Here's an interesting programme featuring three recent(ish) graduates and their experiences going to Uni vs the reality once they had graduated.
Well worth a listen.
Here's an interesting programme featuring three recent(ish) graduates and their experiences going to Uni vs the reality once they had graduated.
Well worth a listen.
jeeze... just started listening one guy at the start who blames his dad for encouraging him to go to university and another guy who spent two years at university studying computer science then dropped out to a full time role at a supermarket that in investing in his development yet he only earns slightly above minimum wage...
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OH GOD that's just... lingering... god... no...
God forbid life throws you a curveball, eh?
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hahah you guys on OcUK are the most critical *******s I've ever seen. It's just that University is a decision you make and when people blame their fathers for advocating higher education... it's not their dads fault that they want the best for you. Personally, don't think higher education is advocated enough in this country, but what do I know.
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Uni does not make you special these days, experience and skill will be what makes the difference, I am at uni as a mature student simply because I wanted to experience it before I got too old! however I have 10 years work experience under my belt, 7 in specific IT jobs so I will have the best of both worlds but for a graduate without the experience you need to really stand out.
TBH employers value experience a lot more. Especially in IT.
After an apprenticeship you will be far more experienced and better at actually doing the job than someone who just sobered up after uni. Plus you won't have a massive loan to repay.
After an apprenticeship you will be far more experienced and better at actually doing the job than someone who just sobered up after uni. Plus you won't have a massive loan to repay.
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Really? Everyone and their dog has a degree and/or masters these days.
I've got one friend who has a degree and a masters and has been working as a bingo hall worker since he graduated 4 years ago and another who works on a farm.
At the end of the day it's whatever makes you happy.
I'd drop my current job in a heartbeat if I could earn similar doing a job that just let me turn up in the morning, do my shift, go home and not have to think about it until the next day.
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University isn't a homogeneous experience. The graduate who got mediocre grades, went to a mediocre university and drank their way through a degree isn't going to have the same exit prospects as someone who made the most of being at a higher education institution.
completely depends on the job - the massive loan is utterly irrelevant in some cases
sure if you screw up at a good uni and end up with a 2:2 or a third you'd probably have been better off doing the work experience + degree combo
for the highest paying jobs you're still likely better off getting the degree out of the way in 3 years at the best university you can get into - your starting salary at year 3 could easily be double that of the apprentice at Aston at year 5 at some places...
As someone (24 now) who was faced with a similar prospect as yourself four years ago, I went the apprenticeship route - note that this isn't within the IT industry (which I actually left) but instead with oil & gas / energy. The industries share similarities in that you can get universally accepted degrees (in your case, Comp Science, in mine, generic Engineering) that will you into the industry as well as funded training schemes (your degree apprenticeship, my modern apprenticeship).
I want(ed) to get into the energy industry because I feel it isn't something that is ever going to be over-subscribed for work force (despite the current oil price situation). I left IT at an NHS Trust (started as a contractor and then became 2nd line support) because although I always imagined I wanted to work in IT, once I was in the industry I wasn't keen on it.
To give my very broad opinion of your situation, you don't seem sure what you want to do. I don't mean your current choice, I mean in the future: you don't have a chosen career path that you 100% want to follow. That's nothing to be held against you, tens if not hundreds of thousands of people feel the same way. And where do they end up? University.
I'm not painting every uni student with the same brush, but the *vast* majority of those I grew up with and knew throughout school and sixth form either moved onto really poor jobs because they were terrible in learning environments, moved into employment training for a career they were keen in (most of these being apprenticeships or college courses), went to university because the career they want to work in requires certain degrees just for consideration, and everyone else that bummed it along to uni because it "was the done thing" that was droned into them by the school staff and "advisers" and they had no idea what they wanted to do with their lives.
My question to you is do you know where you want to be in five years time? How about ten years? Is there a specific route or place in industry that you want to be involved in? Is there a specific company you're interested in? You've mentioned "the big four" numerous times, but I don't recall seeing anywhere that you actually want to work for them, you're just interested in them. Don't take this as me saying you need to have a solid, 100% concrete path you want to take, because that is not what I mean and life doesn't work that way (as I've found out several times).
Back to my original point in the similarities in our industry - a degree in this industry will give you a step in. You may be very good, or very lucky, and land a good grad scheme and do well for yourself from the off from graduation. Unless you absolutely shine through as the next best thing, this will put you up against many thousands of other people in the exact same place with the exact same frame of mind. An apprenticeship for my industry is an investment of time. Sure, in my case you don't end up with a degree (but instead gain S/NVQs 2 and 3, NCs and HNCs and as many industry certificates as you can name) but you are much more employable from the off as you train for the industry as opposed to training for what is perceived to be the industry - two very different things. You'll start off on less money, but you will progress quicker than any person that started at the degree stage. As others have said, experience is key.
If you asked me directly for what I would do, it would be the apprenticeship without a second thought. Obviously what you value will be different to me and any other person that posts in this thread, and you have some big questions to ask yourself to come to the decision that is right for you. The posts suggesting that post-apprenticeship masters courses are really good pieces of advice if you feel that the D&T degree doesn't net you the academic success you need to move from company to company or into another industry.
I just feel that if you go to uni unsure of where you ultimately want to end up, you'll be paying a very large sum of money to have the luxury of putting off growing up for three to four years and end up with a degree that, frankly, thousands of other people will have at the same time. Conversely, the apprenticeship will result in you having an industry-relevant degree (if it wasn't relevant, it wouldn't be offered), no academic-related debt, a very high likelihood of employment either at the training company or elsewhere, and in a very good financial position at a very young age - this is not something to be sniffed at and deserves some very serious consideration.
I want(ed) to get into the energy industry because I feel it isn't something that is ever going to be over-subscribed for work force (despite the current oil price situation). I left IT at an NHS Trust (started as a contractor and then became 2nd line support) because although I always imagined I wanted to work in IT, once I was in the industry I wasn't keen on it.
To give my very broad opinion of your situation, you don't seem sure what you want to do. I don't mean your current choice, I mean in the future: you don't have a chosen career path that you 100% want to follow. That's nothing to be held against you, tens if not hundreds of thousands of people feel the same way. And where do they end up? University.
I'm not painting every uni student with the same brush, but the *vast* majority of those I grew up with and knew throughout school and sixth form either moved onto really poor jobs because they were terrible in learning environments, moved into employment training for a career they were keen in (most of these being apprenticeships or college courses), went to university because the career they want to work in requires certain degrees just for consideration, and everyone else that bummed it along to uni because it "was the done thing" that was droned into them by the school staff and "advisers" and they had no idea what they wanted to do with their lives.
My question to you is do you know where you want to be in five years time? How about ten years? Is there a specific route or place in industry that you want to be involved in? Is there a specific company you're interested in? You've mentioned "the big four" numerous times, but I don't recall seeing anywhere that you actually want to work for them, you're just interested in them. Don't take this as me saying you need to have a solid, 100% concrete path you want to take, because that is not what I mean and life doesn't work that way (as I've found out several times).
Back to my original point in the similarities in our industry - a degree in this industry will give you a step in. You may be very good, or very lucky, and land a good grad scheme and do well for yourself from the off from graduation. Unless you absolutely shine through as the next best thing, this will put you up against many thousands of other people in the exact same place with the exact same frame of mind. An apprenticeship for my industry is an investment of time. Sure, in my case you don't end up with a degree (but instead gain S/NVQs 2 and 3, NCs and HNCs and as many industry certificates as you can name) but you are much more employable from the off as you train for the industry as opposed to training for what is perceived to be the industry - two very different things. You'll start off on less money, but you will progress quicker than any person that started at the degree stage. As others have said, experience is key.
If you asked me directly for what I would do, it would be the apprenticeship without a second thought. Obviously what you value will be different to me and any other person that posts in this thread, and you have some big questions to ask yourself to come to the decision that is right for you. The posts suggesting that post-apprenticeship masters courses are really good pieces of advice if you feel that the D&T degree doesn't net you the academic success you need to move from company to company or into another industry.
I just feel that if you go to uni unsure of where you ultimately want to end up, you'll be paying a very large sum of money to have the luxury of putting off growing up for three to four years and end up with a degree that, frankly, thousands of other people will have at the same time. Conversely, the apprenticeship will result in you having an industry-relevant degree (if it wasn't relevant, it wouldn't be offered), no academic-related debt, a very high likelihood of employment either at the training company or elsewhere, and in a very good financial position at a very young age - this is not something to be sniffed at and deserves some very serious consideration.
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Welcome to the real world
.You won't be stuck in work forever, you need to look at it as a great opportunity to get a good head start.
I suppose that largely depends on the company the apprenticeship is with. You're certainly not likely to face any problems with them for career progression are you? You'll be in the industry, with qualifications and training that the industry itself values, rather than pitching in for a graduate scheme along with all the other graduates.
If it were me? Going back I would not bother with Uni.