Delvis: weight lifting log - time to conquer

[Skillmister]

I think it was LiE who had his Squat and Deadlift at 5kg, then both OHP and Bench at 2.5kg originally; I believe that's what Delvis is following.

Yes, 5kg is what's recommended. Delvis said he was going to do 2.5kg for the first cycles, i think that is the problem. Not to mention 5kg might be too low for these kind of weights?

 

[Delvis]

But LiE benches 160 and Deadlift's over 200kg. It's exponentially more difficult to add strength at this level, and I've always thought that is what 531 is aimed at.

5/3/1 can also be used as a beginner routine, Wendler even states this.

Don't see why you would do a strength based routine with set progression and then just ruin it by adding tiny amounts of weight, which you could add with any old routine.

If my bench and OHP was set to 5kg increases after the first cycle I would stall far too soon, which isn't the idea of the program.

That said, if it is too low I just adjust it.

You can also retest your 1rm's to change the initial cycle.

 

[Freefaller]

I would add at least 5kg if not up to 10kg. No point otherwise. You really need to get repping at heavy weights at close to your 90% when doing this programme else you'll just waste your time.

I personally would put a minimum of 5kg - but definitely up to 10kg.

Remember, the last set is repping as much as you can. Doesn't matter if you can't do 10 reps - it's about pushing the boundaries of your body. The heaviest day (5/3/1 day) is still not actually doing your 90% at the heaviest, it's at about 85% or so. And that's for the last set for reps. All the 5 rep and 3 rep days should be a breeze. The heavier you go and closer you go to your 1RMs the more likely you are to progress.

5/3/1 is not a slow and steady routine - it's suppose to be fairly full on - no point in doing it unless you push yourself. Else you might as well just do a hypertrophy programme at 70-80% of your 1RM for lots of reps.

Are you going to do the boring but big reps? And other subsidiary exercises? Or just stick to BBB or drop sets and alternative exercises?

 

[Skillmister]

If my bench and OHP was set to 5kg increases after the first cycle I would stall far too soon, which isn't the idea of the program.

Not telling you to add 5kg to your bench and ohp.

 

[Delvis]

I was intending on doing alternate exercises, much like I do now.

 

[Freefaller]

That's the thing - you WON'T be increase your 1RM by 5kg, because you'll never be lifting your 1RM during the programme - it's always a target which keeps increasing, as the weights keep going up. So technically you no longer have a 1RM you have a PROJECTED 1RM which is different. It's a transient state at all times - that's the joy of this programme, you never stall, because your 1RM is not the same every cycle.

 

[Syla5]

Monkee the program is not that slow, adding 5kg to your squat and deadlift each week would see you add 60kg to both in a year. If Delvis did that he would be deadlifting 210 and squatting 170 by the end of the year!

With 5/3/1 you do see progress every session, its just not as obvious as a progam like stronglifts, but likewise with stronglifts once you get to the top end you dont progress anywhere near as quickly either.

 

[Freefaller]

I was intending on doing alternate exercises, much like I do now.

So just do the 3 sets (excluding warm up) and then alternatives? Personally you could benefit from doing some BBB on the main movements to add a bit of volume. THEN do some alternatives too.

 

[Delvis]

That's the thing - you WON'T be increase your 1RM by 5kg, because you'll never be lifting your 1RM during the programme - it's always a target which keeps increasing, as the weights keep going up. So technically you no longer have a 1RM you have a PROJECTED 1RM which is different. It's a transient state at all times - that's the joy of this programme, you never stall, because your 1RM is not the same every cycle.

I know that, I just can't type it out in plain English like you can

 

[Delvis]

So just do the 3 sets (excluding warm up) and then alternatives? Personally you could benefit from doing some BBB on the main movements to add a bit of volume. THEN do some alternatives too.

In bold: that was the idea. I would love to do the BBB and alternatives, but I doubt I will have time in the morning at my current training time 6/6:30 am start.

 

[MoNkeE]

Monkee the program is not that slow, adding 5kg to your squat and deadlift each week would see you add 60kg to both in a year. If Delvis did that he would be deadlifting 210 and squatting 170 by the end of the year!

Y PEOPLE NO GET POINT?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! Gah!

It IS slow. Doing Stronglifts, he could be adding 2.5kg to each lift EVERY WEEK!!!! If he lifted like his life was actually dependent on it and ate the right amount of food. Working sets of what, 60 - 70kg squats, 55kg bench press, deadlifts is bizarrely high compared to everything else at about 120kg. But these are NOT the numbers you'd expect a strong lifts routine to stall at.

So progression of 2.5kg weekly should still be attainable on stronglifts imo. Not 5kg monthly :\

 

[Freefaller]

Monkee the program is not that slow, adding 5kg to your squat and deadlift each week would see you add 60kg to both in a year. If Delvis did that he would be deadlifting 210 and squatting 170 by the end of the year!

With 5/3/1 you do see progress every session, its just not as obvious as a progam like stronglifts, but likewise with stronglifts once you get to the top end you dont progress anywhere near as quickly either.

Not quite right, it adds 60kg to your PROJECTED 1RM. Since you're never training at your 1RM.

Remember it's all about the overlaps from week 1 to week 3 (in terms of reps) and the overlaps in weights from cycle to cycle.

For example for bench @ 63kg:

Week 1:

37.50*5
42.50*5
47.50*AMRAP (as many reps as possible)

Week 2:

40.00*3
45.00 *3
50.00 *AMRAP

Week 3:

42.50 *5
47.50 *3
55.00 *AMRAP

Week 4 - deload

Week 5 (cycle 2) - here you've added 5kg to your PROJECTED 1RM on bench:

40.00 *5
47.50 *5
52.50 *AMRAP

Week 6:

42.50 *3
50.00 *3
55.00 *AMRAP

Week 7:

47.50 *5
52.50 *3
57.50 *AMRAP

Week 8 - deload

Week 9 - (cycle 3) - here you've added 5kg to your PROJECTED 1RM on bench:

42.50 *5
50.00 *5
57.50 *AMRAP

Week 10:

47.50 *3
52.50 *3
60.00 *AMRAP

Week 11:

50.00 *5
57.50 *3
62.50 *AMRAP

See the last weight? That's 10 weeks before he even touches his initial 1RM. 10 weeks is a long time and it'll be easy to acheive. That's with 5kg a week.

See how the weights link from week 3 to week 5? It's only a small increment in weight - I've highlighted it in this colour.

I think he can afford to up the weights - but putting tiny increments will be too slow - once you start to stall at the AMRAP or you're not able to complete the 5/3/1 rep week - then maybe start revising the increments.

 

[Delvis]

I'm aware of what you are saying, it's just a different angle on things. The difference is, I'm not doing 5x5 every week.

Week 1: 3x5+
Week 2: 3x3+
Week 3: 1x5, 1x3, 1x1+
Week 4: 3x5 @ deload

The plus as FF indicates, is to go all out and rep it as many times as you can* on the final set.

*not to failure

EDIT: FF detailed

 

[Freefaller]

In bold: that was the idea. I would love to do the BBB and alternatives, but I doubt I will have time in the morning at my current training time 6/6:30 am start.

I would STRONGLY suggest that you do at least a couple of dropsets @ about 60% for at least 10 reps.

How many subsidiary exercises will you be doing and how many sets/reps?

 

[Freefaller]

I'm aware of what you are saying, it's just a different angle on things. The difference is, I'm not doing 5x5 every week.

Week 1: 3x5+
Week 2: 3x3+
Week 3: 1x5, 1x3, 1x1+
Week 4: 3x5 @ deload

The plus as FF indicates, is to go all out and rep it as many times as you can* on the final set.

*not to failure

EDIT: Syla5 detailed

Not quite right, you will fail on the last rep - if you don't, you have another rep left in you. If you don't do it, you'll not progress

 

[Delvis]

I would STRONGLY suggest that you do at least a couple of dropsets @ about 60% for at least 10 reps.

How many subsidiary exercises will you be doing and how many sets/reps?

Would you use the initial BBB calculator on the spreadsheet and enter 60% or do it another way? As that will be using 60% of my projected 1RM.

I'd more than likely carry on with what I am doing subsidary wise, so things like RDL's and split squats/gobs, incline DB bench and cable flyes and dips, cable raises for shoulders and alternate presses, BORs and lat pulls, then obviously core work. Naturally this will all depend on how ****** I am

Not quite right, you will fail on the last rep - if you don't, you have another rep left in you. If you don't do it, you'll not progress

Well, as with anything, people have different ways of doing things and programs get altered. That what I was told, not to go TO failure, but near it.

 

[Freefaller]

Would you use the initial BBB calculator on the spreadsheet and enter 60% or do it another way? As that will be using 60% of my projected 1RM.

I'd more than likely carry on with what I am doing subsidary wise, so things like RDL's and split squats/gobs, incline DB bench and cable flyes and dips, cable raises for shoulders and alternate presses, BORs and lat pulls, then obviously core work. Naturally this will all depend on how ****** I am

Yup that's what I'd use, unless you're good at mental arithmetic.

You won't be that ****ed with such little volume. If that's all you're going to do on the main lifts, then make sure you do at least 4*8 or 5*6 in the other exercises as heavy as you can to just about complete all of them, else you will get nowhere fast.

BBB is good for getting used to the weights too - as your weights increase doing your BBB routine weights will increase. I'm not suggesting doing 5 sets - but hey, do your rests for a strict 45-60s and you can get those out in under 10 minutes - then just do 3*8 on the subsidiary exercises.

The key is spending time with the heavier weights and getting used to repping out.

Well, as with anything, people have different ways of doing things and programs get altered. That what I was told, not to go TO failure, but near it.

No.

If you fail to lift the last rep - that's when you stop. It's that simple. Rep 9 reps out and suddenly you go down on your 10th and it's ****ed - that's it, call it 9 reps. You won't know if it's 9 or 10 reps unless you try the 10th., You won't KNOW it's close to failure unless you actually fail.

 

[Delvis]

Yup that's what I'd use, unless you're good at mental arithmetic.

You won't be that ****ed with such little volume. If that's all you're going to do on the main lifts, then make sure you do at least 4*8 or 5*6 in the other exercises as heavy as you can to just about complete all of them, else you will get nowhere fast.

BBB is good for getting used to the weights too - as your weights increase doing your BBB routine weights will increase. I'm not suggesting doing 5 sets - but hey, do your rests for a strict 45-60s and you can get those out in under 10 minutes - then just do 3*8 on the subsidiary exercises.

The key is spending time with the heavier weights and getting used to repping out.

On the spreadsheet I have the BBB's are set to 5x10 weeks 1-3 and 3x10 on 4. I'll have to see what I complete, if I fail the BBB sets I can always change the percentage they are performed at.

No.

If you fail to lift the last rep - that's when you stop. It's that simple. Rep 9 reps out and suddenly you go down on your 10th and it's ****ed - that's it, call it 9 reps. You won't know if it's 9 or 10 reps unless you try the 10th., You won't KNOW it's close to failure unless you actually fail.

As said, merely going by what I've been told, which is what Wendler suggests.

 

[Freefaller]

Yes, but he doesn't know you.

You need a kick up the ****.

If you're not a bloody sweaty mess by the end of the session you're doing it wrong.

You will need to make sure that if you don't do BBB that you hit the other exercises as hard since you will not be tired or worn out from doing the simple lifts.

 

[Djdom56]

Y PEOPLE NO GET POINT?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! Gah!

It IS slow. Doing Stronglifts, he could be adding 2.5kg to each lift EVERY WEEK!!!! If he lifted like his life was actually dependent on it and ate the right amount of food. Working sets of what, 60 - 70kg squats, 55kg bench press, deadlifts is bizarrely high compared to everything else at about 120kg. But these are NOT the numbers you'd expect a strong lifts routine to stall at.

So progression of 2.5kg weekly should still be attainable on stronglifts imo. Not 5kg monthly :\

I understand your frustration with the situation however I kind of disagree.

Firstly, the routine that Delvis was doing had a stronglifts type progression already built in but it was a lot more sensible allowing for him to make sure he wasn't snapping his **** up. He has been making a very steady progress since being on it on all of his lifts while making improvements on dysfunction that affect him in his daily life.

My main confusion arises with the fact that he wants a new program at all at the moment. Delvis, if you fancy a change then it makes sense to have one but I don't think you need to do either of those programs.

Stronglifts is unnecessary for him if he continues with a routine based similarly on the one he has at the moment and it would actually be less affective.

5/3/1 is also not ideal for the reasons that Syla5 said previously. You end up working too close to maximum for someone who still has problems that could lead to injury if not treated correctly. There is nothing about 5/3/1 that would account for this and therefore the problems would most likely get worse. Freefaller has been using 5/3/1 very affectively and is making some really fantastic progress but he hasn't just jumped into the routine he has adjusted his weights so as to not over stress himself. He also has a fantastic program of assistance work that supports his main routine well and works to prevent any problems arising. Unfortunately Delvis doesn't have the experience necessary to adapt the routine for himself in the way and also does not have access to the awesome equipment FF does. Also BBB is absolutely useless. It does nothing but tire you out. Do not do BBB. The only good thing is the volume which can be implemented in a much more sensible way with much greater benefits.

I'm not sure if Delvis would agree with me on this, but I think he wants to get stronger and he wants to stay healthy, whilst improving any problems that still remain. Neither stronglifts nor 5/3/1 will allow him to do this.



Delvis, another question for you. Are your main goals, at the moment, directed toward strength or size?