*** Destiny Raid & PvP discussion thread ***

[KWJay]

We got to 8-0 then came across a few quality teams that ended our Lighthouse family times. However, glad to be pretty much getting to grips with that map now.

And I choked horribly and kept running in there to get the tags but just didn't quite the kills to turn it to our favour.

Yeah sorry we just didn't quite make it to the Lighthouse, Jay. We can try again next week.

Thanks for the run last night guys. Considering my limited experience in Trials I think my contributions are getting better! Was a good run and considering I've never played that map before and didn't know the best lines of sight on the heavy rounds we did well.

Got myself a cool looking dog-face, the hand cannon and some other goodies so all round pretty decent run.

Definitely up for more Trials at the weekend!

 

[Greboth]

Yeah the helmet is a little odd looking. I kept it but can't really see me using it too much as it is int+str. I really should sort out my armour sets on my hunter to give that a go in ToO as my warlock is getting swamped in ToO armour.

Does anyone know is trials will continue after TTK drops? A quick read of gaming sites I can access at work didn't answer it.

 

[Fallen god]

It was a good run last night, shame we couldn't make the 9-0 but we only got stomped one match so I'm sure we can do it. That was funny watching the wolfpack slowly injure the guy. Also the round where (I think) everyone used their super was so hectic.

That crazy rounds are so funny, got 10 kills in 1 round was insane, at the end it was me vs 3 all close I dropped an arcbolt and just stabbed like crazy, no clue how I managed to win hahaha.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Trials is better than normal Crucible / IB as the matchmaking is connection based rather than skill based. There is still lag though.

Of course this can lead to a different kind of frustration when you are matched against a "top 1%" team.

matchmaking in normal crucible is also connection based as well as skill based believe it or not.

it's how people manage to do private matches by picking 2 hosts who live close together to search at the same time.

i was involved in a high level private match and it was intriguing to find out how it all worked. basically the other team joined our private party everyone told each other what city they lived in. they then picked the 2 from the same city who were on opposite sides to be host.

you then have both click search at the exact same time and when one team finds a match and the other doesn't you hit cancel on the evaluating pop up and try again.

when you both find a party at the exact same time that means you have been paired up. you then either mute the other team or kick them from your private party.

so yeah normal crucible believe it or not is connection based too, it's just that a lot of fireteams tend to have people from all over which throws this out of sync.

 

[Fallen god]

I really think its just the cut off for ping is too high, maybe to make up for the smaller numbers in Crucible. With normal FPS games like BF/CoD and so on its all online more or less, so everyone with a copy will go online leading too a much bigger community. Compared to Destiny I would guess the split is something closers to 70:30 in favour off PVE, and I don't think its close to CoD in sells. To make up for this they match make you with laggier people. At this point in normal crucible every single game at least 1 person is red bar, ever game.

Honestly I care less then everyone running thorn/shotgun/blink then I do with lag, or even playing the top tier players. I have 1 friend that is 1%, mostly top 10 on PS4, and its honestly fun playing, I get completely wrecked but I grow, learn and all in all its fun. When I face a team of red bar its just depressing, I really just feel like quitting.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

I really think its just the cut off for ping is too high, maybe to make up for the smaller numbers in Crucible. With normal FPS games like BF/CoD and so on its all online more or less, so everyone with a copy will go online leading too a much bigger community. Compared to Destiny I would guess the split is something closers to 70:30 in favour off PVE, and I don't think its close to CoD in sells. To make up for this they match make you with laggier people. At this point in normal crucible every single game at least 1 person is red bar, ever game.

Honestly I care less then everyone running thorn/shotgun/blink then I do with lag, or even playing the top tier players. I have 1 friend that is 1%, mostly top 10 on PS4, and its honestly fun playing, I get completely wrecked but I grow, learn and all in all its fun. When I face a team of red bar its just depressing, I really just feel like quitting.

i have said this all along if destiny had dedicated servers i wouldn't buy any other fps game.

the engine and mechanics are all spot on. it's the lag and cheating which is letting it down.

how can a game like rocket league have dedicated servers yet destiny doesn't it boggles the mind.

 

[gord]

Trials is better than normal Crucible / IB as the matchmaking is connection based rather than skill based.

The intricacies of connection or skill based matchmaking pale in comparison to the factor of 6 vs 12 players. Trials, salvage, skirmish all play better because there is less demand on the ad-hoc network.

I maintain that Destiny is an abnormally high upload demanding game and this is where most of the genuine lag issues reside. I have 4 meg down and 0.5 up on my standard ADSL line. In the first couple of months I couldn't play 12 player games because it would error me towards the end of every match. I believe my client was increasingly desyncing itself until the game deems it necessary to throw me out. This doesn't happen any more, cynically because they lifted the limit, but there could be other fixes involved too. Nevertheless my bar will be red or yellow during a game 90% of the time. Where's my FTTC BT?!

 

[Greboth]

So who is going to be around tonight to get 3 NF's out of the way? I should be on from about 7ish.

 

[Fallen god]

i have said this all along if destiny had dedicated servers i wouldn't buy any other fps game.

the engine and mechanics are all spot on. it's the lag and cheating which is letting it down.

how can a game like rocket league have dedicated servers yet destiny doesn't it boggles the mind.

Hurts the bottom line, even if its a bit. The AAA companies now really just want cash cows, thats why every time bungie talks about Destiny its all about their 10 year game plan. They want to milk us for as much as possible, while spending as little as possible.

If you take a look at the Taken King, they have reused a lot of things, and just tweaked them.

 

[mid_gen]

Hurts the bottom line, even if its a bit. The AAA companies now really just want cash cows, thats why every time bungie talks about Destiny its all about their 10 year game plan. They want to milk us for as much as possible, while spending as little as possible.

Wait....you mean game developers aren't charities

 

[mid_gen]

If you take a look at the Taken King, they have reused a lot of things, and just tweaked them.

Really? Cos I was watched the new story mission which was on a new planet, with enemies, new animations, new weapons, new voiceovers, new music, new cutscenes.

Then I played crucible which was on a new map, with new gamemodes, with new subclasses, and all new weapons, and all new armour.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Wait....you mean game developers aren't charities

there's a huge difference between being a reputable company and a cash cow.

i'd rather own a company which makes £500 million a year and churns out a product which is a class leader than make £510 million a year and churn out a laggy mess of a game.

they charged £80 for the base game plus 2 small DLC's. then a further £40 for 1 big DLC.

that doesn't include the overpriced mongoloid editions with replica ghosts, etc.

they have made plenty of money, obviously servers cost money but surely they can justify having them by how much they have made?

"September 10, Activision press release:

SANTA MONICA, Calif.—(BUSINESS WIRE)— Activision Publishing, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Activision Blizzard, Inc.(Nasdaq: ATVI), announced today that the company sold more than $500 million of Destiny into retail stores and first parties worldwide as of day one, making the game the biggest new video game franchise launch in history.

“Based on extraordinary audience demand, retail and first party orders worldwide have exceeded $500 million for Destiny,” said Bobby Kotick, CEO of Activision Blizzard. “This industry milestone marks another blockbuster success for our company and demonstrates our unique ability to create some of the most successful entertainment franchises in the world. The success of Destiny, along with the recent introduction of Blizzard Entertainment’s Hearthstone, is further validation of our unique capabilities to create great entertainment franchises from the ground up.”
How Much Money They Made In Five Days

September 17, Activision press release:

SANTA MONICA, Calif.—(BUSINESS WIRE)— Activision Publishing, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Activision Blizzard, Inc.(Nasdaq: ATVI), announced today that its highly anticipated new franchise Destiny sold-through more than $325 million worldwide in its first five days, according to Chart-Track, first parties, retail customer sell-through information and Activision Blizzard internal estimates.
How Many Hours People Played During The First Week

September 17, Activision press release:

According to Bungie, Destiny players logged more than 100 million hours of online play by the end of the first week
How Many Activities People Participated In During The First Week

September 17, Activision press release:

...and participated in 137 million activities.
How Many Awards And Nominations They’ve Won

September 17, Activision press release:

The game has won over 180 awards and nominations to date.
How Many Times The Average Player Has Played

October 10, Bungie blog post:

The average player has played Destiny 20.9 times.
How Many Players Destiny Averages A Day

October 10, Bungie blog post:

Destiny averages 3.2 million players each and every day!
How Many Players Were Online In Destiny’s First Three Weeks Compared To The Same Span For Halo 3 And Halo: Reach, Combined

October 10, Bungie blog post:

Over the past three weeks, we’ve had more players online in Destiny than we did during the same span for Halo 3 and Halo: Reach, combined.
How Many Millions Of Hours People Have Played

October 16, Sony press release:

Destiny is the most-played title on the PlayStation®4 (PS4™) system with 125 million hours of gameplay.
Just How Much More Played It Is Than The Second-Most-Played PS4 Game

October 16, Sony press release:

Destiny is currently the most-played PS4 game, with total gameplay hours 5X higher than the second most-played title
How Many Hours People Have Broadcast

October 16, Sony press release:

Social sharing is hugely popular among Destiny players, with 450,000 hours of live gameplay broadcasted via the PS4 system’s SHARE functionality
What Percentage PlayStation Plus Memberships Increased By In The Week Before Launch

October 16, Sony press release:

New PlayStation Plus memberships increased 115 percent from the week prior to Destiny’s launch
Where Launch Month Retail Sales Rank In The US

October 17, Activision press release:

In addition to strong sales of software at retail in the US, the first month of Destiny included strong digital sales and a very popular PlayStation 4 hardware bundle as well. Incorporating these figures, not only is Destiny the biggest new franchise launch in video game history, its launch month retail sales rank in the top 10 largest of all time in the US*. In fact, it’s the only new video game franchise in the top 30 all-time based on U.S. retail sales in the launch month**.

*Source: NPD and Activision internal estimates

**Source: NPD
How Many Hours A Day People Are Playing

October 17, Activision press release:

“We’re, of course, ecstatic that Destiny has set sales records. But what we’re most excited about is that this is a game that millions of fans can’t seem to stop playing. A month after launch, people are still playing Destiny an average of three hours per day, which is phenomenal engagement.” said Eric Hirshberg, CEO of Activision Publishing.
How Many Registered Users They Have

November 4, Activision press release:

For the third quarter, Activision Publishing’s Destiny was the largest new franchise launch in videogame history and ranks among the top 10 largest videogame launches of all time in the U.S. To date, Destiny has more than 9.5 million registered users and our active players are playing the game an average of more than three hours per day.
What Activision Publishing CEO Eric Hirshberg Said On An Earnings Call When An Analyst Asked How Many Copies They Had Actually Sold

November 5, Activision earnings call:

First of all, I think by any measure Destiny’s off to a great start. As I mentioned, we were the largest new franchise launch of all time, and despite the large investment... or maybe because of that large investment, we were able to be profitable from day one. And we think it’s only a matter of time now before it becomes our next billion-dollar franchise. I also mentioned the pretty incredible engagement numbers. The average player is investing over three hours of gameplay per day, and to date we have 9.5 million registered users.

Of course that’s a relationship to sell-through, it’s not exact, because some people have more than one identity. But obviously that’s directional. So it’s a highly-engaged audience that is hungry for more content. And when we’ve had that, we think we’ve been good at providing them with more content to satisfy that demand, which we’re planning on doing on December 9 with our first expansion pack.

And I also mentioned that we’re also already underway on our next full game releases. So we’ve got a great pipeline of content, a great plan, a great development partner with Bungie, and we’re very bullish on Destiny.
How Much Non-GAAP Revenue They Generated Combined With How Much Non-GAAP Revenue Hearthstone Generated

February 5, Activision press release:

Kotick added “We expanded our franchise portfolio by launching two of the industry’s most successful new brands, Blizzard’s Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft, and the biggest new IP launch in industry history, Destiny. Combined, these franchises... generated more than $850 million in non‐GAAP revenue.
How Many Registered Users They Have Combined With Hearthstone’s Registered Users

May 6, Activision press release:

Activision Publishing’s Destiny and Blizzard Entertainment’s Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft combined now have more than 50 million registered players and nearly $1 billion in non‐GAAP revenues life‐to‐date.
How Many Hours People Are Still Playing And Also How Many Game Of The Year Awards They Got

May 6, Activision press release:

Activision Publishing’s Destiny continues to have strong engagement, with active players playing about 3 hours per day, along with strong digital sales and expansion attach rates. Additionally, Destiny was awarded Game of the Year by the British Academy of Film and Television Arts, a prestigious addition to the 31 Game of the Year awards that Destiny has been honored with to date.
So how many copies of Destiny did people actually buy? The world may never know."

 

[MachM]

So who is going to be around tonight to get 3 NF's out of the way? I should be on from about 7ish.

I'll be about, just send me an invite.

 

[naisdes]

Is tonight's XB1 CE/VoG run still going on, or is that for tomorrow now?

 

[mid_gen]

*snip*

Where do you think this money comes from? The several hundred million dollars or whatever it cost to launch Destiny doesn't grow on trees. That kind of money doesn't come with "here you go, make something cool, don't worry about a return". These are big companies with obligations to their shareholders, when they take a *huge* risk like punting on a new IP like Destiny, they have to be pretty damn sure they are going to get a return on it.

"Just set up dedicated servers" is not a solution. It's not going to stop lag-switchers, it's not going to stop mutual post-mortem kills and all that stuff that people complain about. The *only* thing it will actually fix is the occasions when you have a shoddy host and the whole match is a shambles. If people are playing on crap connections then you're still going to have crazy in-game behaviour as the server tries to keep everything in sync.

The current networking model by and large works, trials is the only mode where a network issue has any real impact on the player experience (crucible? IB? a death is of very little consequence), and that is pretty solid with the current set up.

Really, I would love you to sit in a meeting and explain that actually our networking model is pretty solid 95% of the time, we're retaining players well and people are enjoying the game. Let's spend XX million dollars on a global dedicated server infrastructure, and add X million to our operating costs, to deal with some edge cases. And then try and defend that when someone pipes up that they are making good progress in identifying problem users, optimising the network code, tweaking matchmaking rules etc....oh and it will only need a few hundred man days.

 

[Fallen god]

Wait....you mean game developers aren't charities

No where did I use for a free game, so not exactly sure what your problem with this part is, but I'm personally starting to have real issue with lag, at this point I straggle to play IB due too it, it actual impacts my game, I don't even want servers, I just want to be able to change the max ping for a game a join.

Really? Cos I was watched the new story mission which was on a new planet, with enemies, new animations, new weapons, new voiceovers, new music, new cutscenes.

Then I played crucible which was on a new map, with new gamemodes, with new subclasses, and all new weapons, and all new armour.

When you say new enemies, do you mean the same enemies with a new skin?

Also the voice overs had to be redone, they can't afford Dinklage, and the current voice overs are so horrible that no one actual understand whats going on. New animations is what, a few supers and a few new attacks.

New weapons and armour is hardly a huge deal, a bit of art work, they already have a lot of the ground work, there are a few weapons that are really different, but most don't seem too different then what we have right now. Not even sure why New music matters. Cut scenes again is something that they should have done correctly from the start, I can't find a single person that actual understand the story line behind this game properly.

New PVP mode again is something that was missing, no CTF style game in a FPS is a huge gap, I personally love it and its my favourite mode. The other game mode is literally someone changing a variable for the charge rate of a few things, I mean 5mins work and some testing?

I'm not knocking it at all, its smart business, its good to laydown a nice foundation and work on top of it, but there is so much that is reused, I mean the main story is all the same mobs you have fought for the last year are now more evil.

 

[Mr Gimp]

Is tonight's XB1 CE/VoG run still going on, or is that for tomorrow now?

I'm still in Cambridge atm, hopefully leaving in an hour or so *hopefully* should be back at 8 ish all things considered. I'll 100 per cent be back for 9 though as murders shall be committed if not.

 

[mid_gen]

When you say new enemies, do you mean the same enemies with a new skin?

New meshes. New textures. New shaders. New animations. New sounds. New behaviours.

If you think The Taken was chosen because it's some kind of lazy way out of making new assets it just a symptom of your ignorance of the amount of work involved I'm afraid.

New weapons and armour is hardly a huge deal, a bit of art work, they already have a lot of the ground work, there are a few weapons that are really different, but most don't seem too different then what we have right now. Not even sure why New music matters.

See above.

....but there is so much that is reused...

I didn't see anything re-used. As I said, every model, every weapon, all the dialogue, music, weapons sounds, animations, supers, game modes. All new.

No-one's even seen a sniff of the new patrol area (which they've said is the largest yet) and the raid (likewise, biggest yet)....but you somehow come to conclusion that they have just recycled everything?

 

[Fallen god]

Where do you think this money comes from? The several hundred million dollars or whatever it cost to launch Destiny doesn't grow on trees. That kind of money doesn't come with "here you go, make something cool, don't worry about a return". These are big companies with obligations to their shareholders, when they take a *huge* risk like punting on a new IP like Destiny, they have to be pretty damn sure they are going to get a return on it.

Honestly think before Destiny anything that bungie launched would have had a huge following, the amount of hype just around bungie fans without even know anything about destiny was amazing.

"Just set up dedicated servers" is not a solution. It's not going to stop lag-switchers, it's not going to stop mutual post-mortem kills and all that stuff that people complain about. The *only* thing it will actually fix is the occasions when you have a shoddy host and the whole match is a shambles. If people are playing on crap connections then you're still going to have crazy in-game behaviour as the server tries to keep everything in sync.

Actual it will fix that, if the person has to ping the server to say they shot at position x,y,z and on there server I'm not there it won't hit me, problem solved very nicely (unless I'm missing something here). It will also reduce a lot of the post-mortems where I've shot someone enough times for them to die, but their client is lagging, I've never had anything close too this in any other FPS period, dedicated servers or not.

If someone is lagging, it will mostly effect them, for the most part they won't be able to either kill, or be killed. Unlike current Destiny where they can kill everything and never die.

The current networking model by and large works, trials is the only mode where a network issue has any real impact on the player experience (crucible? IB? a death is of very little consequence), and that is pretty solid with the current set up.

For me it doesn't, its the worst I've ever experienced in an FPS, I used to think CoD was bad, but this is orders of magnitude worse. During CoD days I would get maybe 1,2 laggy players pre session, in destiny its 1,2 pre a game, for most games, some can be worse. Then you set into IB where everything is just red. ToO Is the best but for me personally its worse then any other FPS I've played, last night I had 18 games, 10 of them had 1 or more player with a red bar, by no means is this a good experience. I could just be unlikely, I also have great internet.

http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/4574045377

Really, I would love you to sit in a meeting and explain that actually our networking model is pretty solid 95% of the time, we're retaining players well and people are enjoying the game. Let's spend XX million dollars on a global dedicated server infrastructure, and add X million to our operating costs, to deal with some edge cases. And then try and defend that when someone pipes up that they are making good progress in identifying problem users, optimising the network code, tweaking matchmaking rules etc....oh and it will only need a few hundred man days.

I mean it depends, destiny right now has a lot of issues stopping it hitting the mainstream competitive scene, less lag is a part of that. Being one of the big MLG games really helps with hype etc etc. CS:GO is still doing amazingly well cause of it. It also depends on longevity, if its XX Millions now, but they can keep it going for a much lower cost for the next 10 years and have minimal lag issues going forward it could be a really good investment. Also the example of rocket league is a great one, it was free on PSN and has had great reviews so it must get a lot of traffic, at the start it was shakey but they are doing fine now with servers, pretty sure Destiny has a lot more money behind it.

 

[Fallen god]

New meshes. New textures. New shaders. New animations. New sounds. New behaviours.

If you think The Taken was chosen because it's some kind of lazy way out of making new assets it just a symptom of your ignorance of the amount of work involved I'm afraid.



See above.



I didn't see anything re-used. As I said, every model, every weapon, all the dialogue, music, weapons sounds, animations, supers, game modes. All new.

No-one's even seen a sniff of the new patrol area (which they've said is the largest yet) and the raid (likewise, biggest yet)....but you somehow come to conclusion that they have just recycled everything?

I've not seen everything, but everything I've seen has some varying degree of reuse, again I'm not against it, its just a fact really, e.g mobs have some changes but its the same modal, with a new skin and a few new attacks, they didn't redesign everything single mob from the ground up. Also no need to attack me personally, I've worked on games before, not a huge amount but I have an okay understand of what goes into it.