*** Destiny Raid & PvP discussion thread ***

Psycho Sonny said:
there's a huge difference between being a reputable company and a cash cow.

i'd rather own a company which makes £500 million a year and churns out a product which is a class leader than make £510 million a year and churn out a laggy mess of a game.

they charged £80 for the base game plus 2 small DLC's. then a further £40 for 1 big DLC.

that doesn't include the overpriced mongoloid editions with replica ghosts, etc.

they have made plenty of money, obviously servers cost money but surely they can justify having them by how much they have made?
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Obviously they can afford to do so. The same argument is used repeatedly upon every yearly iteration of CoD so it surely was obvious it was going to be levied against Destiny too. There must have been a discussion as to go with dedi’s or not but I doubt we will ever get to know the reason why it was decided not to.

I don’t remember it being so laggy in the beginning of Destiny though there are many reasons why it may be more laggy now than it was.

MachM said:
I'll be about, just send me an invite.
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Cool :) Should be doable with two of us but usually people on to get a third.
 
Fallen god said:
Actual it will fix that, if the person has to ping the server to say they shot at position x,y,z and on there server I'm not there it won't hit me, problem solved very nicely (unless I'm missing something here). It will also reduce a lot of the post-mortems where I've shot someone enough times for them to die, but their client is lagging, I've never had anything close too this in any other FPS period, dedicated servers or not.

If someone is lagging, it will mostly effect them, for the most part they won't be able to either kill, or be killed. Unlike current Destiny where they can kill everything and never die.
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What you're talking about it not simply hosting the server on a dedicated machine, it's a fundamental rewrite of the networking engine. What you forget is that you have 12 (actually 13 if you have a dedicated server) different simulations all running, all out of sync with one another. If you have someone in your crosshairs and pull the trigger, send a message to the server that you fired at at XYZ vector from point XYZ, server then says right, well your last position I have was ABC and actually the direction you fired at on my simulation was a miss so tough luck matey, despite what you saw on your screen. Dedicated servers aren't some magic fix for network latency and gamestate synchronisation.
 
Fallen god said:
I've not seen everything, but everything I've seen has some varying degree of reuse, again I'm not against it, its just a fact really, e.g mobs have some changes but its the same modal, with a new skin and a few new attacks, they didn't redesign everything single mob from the ground up. Also no need to attack me personally, I've worked on games before, not a huge amount but I have an okay understand of what goes into it.
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The models are different. The skins are different. The animations are different. Their weapons are different, their weapon effects are different, the sounds are different, the AI is different.

The only thing a Cabal Phalanx has in common with a Taken Phalanx is that they probably derived the Taken from the original mesh and skeletal rig. That's a tiny fraction of the effort involved in creating the finished asset. It barely qualifies as re-use at all, let alone your assertion that they 'mostly re-used' content.

BTW Taken Phalanxes charge some kind of weird energy beam on their shields and then fire it at you. Fun times!
 
Fallen god said:
For me it doesn't, its the worst I've ever experienced in an FPS, I used to think CoD was bad, but this is orders of magnitude worse. During CoD days I would get maybe 1,2 laggy players pre session, in destiny its 1,2 pre a game, for most games, some can be worse. Then you set into IB where everything is just red. ToO Is the best but for me personally its worse then any other FPS I've played, last night I had 18 games, 10 of them had 1 or more player with a red bar, by no means is this a good experience. I could just be unlikely, I also have great internet.
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Dedicated servers will not stop those players having red bars.
 
dedicated servers overall is better than p2p.

it won't solve every issue but there will be less issues in the first place.

if you have a high tick rate (66-100) then syncing shouldn't be an issue.

i never had lag or BS kills happening to me on a 100 tick css server on the pc. lag switches also don't work on dedi's do they? surely they are detected and booted by the server if it's running checks all the time.
 
mid_gen said:
What you're talking about it not simply hosting the server on a dedicated machine, it's a fundamental rewrite of the networking engine. What you forget is that you have 12 (actually 13 if you have a dedicated server) different simulations all running, all out of sync with one another. If you have someone in your crosshairs and pull the trigger, send a message to the server that you fired at at XYZ vector from point XYZ, server then says right, well your last position I have was ABC and actually the direction you fired at on my simulation was a miss so tough luck matey, despite what you saw on your screen. Dedicated servers aren't some magic fix for network latency and gamestate synchronisation.
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Off course it needs a completely networking change, its the reason a lot of smaller indie games don't ever go online its just expensive overall. But my main point was that the server acts as the "truth", everyone would have a ping threshold against the truth, if its low enough (sub 100ms) you shouldn't be able to tell the difference. This should eliminate the type of lag we currently get in destiny where if someone really lagging they can kill you just fine but it almost impossible to damage them. Personally this is the worst type for me, I rather miss a kill every once in awhile then face a godlike person that I can never kill while they constantly kill me.

Also being selfish for a moment, I have great internet so I would greatly benefit personally from servers.

Also I don't think we need servers, just tighter pings on match making as an option, I personally don't mind waiting longer for a match if it means it lags less.


mid_gen said:
The models are different. The skins are different. The animations are different. Their weapons are different, their weapon effects are different, the sounds are different, the AI is different.

The only thing a Cabal Phalanx has in common with a Taken Phalanx is that they probably derived the Taken from the original mesh and skeletal rig. That's a tiny fraction of the effort involved in creating the finished asset. It barely qualifies as re-use at all, let alone your assertion that they 'mostly re-used' content.

BTW Taken Phalanxes charge some kind of weird energy beam on their shields and then fire it at you. Fun times!
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Okay, so the modals for everything is completely different? Ive only seen videos and they look similar with different skins and so on. Also just want to make it clear I'm not against reuse, they should reuse where they can, or else we would wait years for a DLC.
 
Psycho Sonny said:
if you have a high tick rate (66-100) then syncing shouldn't be an issue.
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It just means you're syncing more often, doesn't fundamentally change the fact that you're dealing with multiple out of sync gamestates and constantly having to perform all sorts of networking dark arts to make things appear to work smoothly.

I'm not saying Destiny's networking is perfect, but really, taking rose-tinted specs off, it's not that bad. I used to play a lot of fast-paced PC hitscan FPS on dedicated servers with everyone on <10ms latencies and I raged about lag issues just as much....and you had to compensate for the latency yourself by leading targets etc. In Destiny, you have your crosshair on someone's head and pull the trigger, they die. You may die as well of course :) but it's a tradeoff.
 
how would tighter pings work for me when i'm in Scotland and i play with a guy who lives in Boston in my fireteam?

I could also have a guy from say Australia in my fireteam? I have people from all over the world I play with.

I'd rather go with dedicated servers that way, I can play with friends from all over.
 
Fallen god said:
Okay, so the modals for everything is completely different? Ive only seen videos and they look similar with different skins and so on. Also just want to make it clear I'm not against reuse, they should reuse where they can, or else we would wait years for a DLC.
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Really, they are very different. Apart from the superficial resemblance to the original race they are effectively new enemies. I only saw psions, phalanx and regular cabal. I think from clips I've seen else where that every single Fallen, Cabal and Vex NPC has a new 'Taken' version....that's a lot of completely new gameplay....more than if they had created an entire new race.
 
For me personally Destiny has the worst experience in terms of lag, I used to play exclusively on PCs up until MW2 which I switched to PS3. I hated how laggy MW2 was, but it was most in bursts, like I would die when I knew I killed someone. In Destiny I get things way worse, just matches where the other side are all lagging, I hate leaving matches midway but I feel like I should at times, its just impossible to cope with.

At the same time Destiny is by far my favourite FPS, I have no issue trash CoD, but from a networking stand point I found CoD too be favourable. Maybe its due to this that gets me annoyed more when I have to face laggy people and I'm over estimating how bad it is. It is also getting worse, when I started destiny I don't remember it being this bad, my first few IBs where lag free for the most part too.
 
Psycho Sonny said:
how would tighter pings work for me when i'm in Scotland and i play with a guy who lives in Boston in my fireteam?

I could also have a guy from say Australia in my fireteam? I have people from all over the world I play with.

I'd rather go with dedicated servers that way, I can play with friends from all over.
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Why would dedicated servers help? You're going to be dealing with >250ms latency playing with people that geographically spread. Dedicated servers don't defy the laws of physics!
 
mid_gen said:
Why would dedicated servers help? You're going to be dealing with >250ms latency playing with people that geographically spread. Dedicated servers don't defy the laws of physics!
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It would even things out. I have a really good connection (150MB) so I'd rather rely on a server than some guy running a 0.5MB upload as host.
 
Psycho Sonny said:
It would even things out. I have a really good connection (150MB) so I'd rather rely on a server than some guy running a 0.5MB upload as host.
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Therein also lies one of the difficulties with dedicated servers. Fireteam spread all over, which data centre do you use? A bunch of guys in aus and UK want to play as a fireteam in IB....uh oh, whatever happens the other people you're playing with are going to be on the receiving end of some nasty lag issues, whether they are assigned an oceana or Europe DC. Or maybe you get put on a ME dc with local players on a great connection and both UK and Aus players get whupped.

Do you split the game blizzard style into regions where people can't play across regions?

Anyway, point is that dedicated servers arent a magic bullet, and they come with a whole mass of complications and huge costs.
 
I won't be back in time for the Raid guys, at South Mimms Services atm feeding my face hole with the Colonels best seasoned chicken corpses.

Edit: Dessicated chicken titties inhaled, onward at Mach 3 !
 
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Probably tomo now by the looks of it.

Anyone around for a poe 34 or 35 if anyone is feeling brave enough lol.
 
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