Differences in Pay

groen said:
You guys are hopeless, if i want life coaching ill listen to DR phil, i was hoping to see a load of exploited IT workers join me in moaning. :(
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Sorry I'm not moaning, but whenever I've thought to myself stuff this why am I doing xyz for this money I've done something about it which usually involves finding a new job. Working in London there must be plenty of opportunities available, I live in the bum end of nowhere career wise yet manage to find things.

As has been said either get out of support or get moved up the ladder, sitting where you are will only frustrate you more.

Also I take it you had a look at the salaries.xls file you found, opened it up and had a peek? Tut tut, sure it's not meant for your eyes yet you still looked :p

Guys I used to work with were terrible for that, used to look in the HR database to see how much everyone else in the team got paid (and since then they were a bit hostile towards me), read bosses emails to find out what questions would be coming up in an impending interview etc, so wrong.

PMKeates said:
I know someone who went to work for one of the firms on that list several years ago, in IT, in his 20s, with ZERO previous experience, and started on £30k.

I am, therefore, calling you out.
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Difference here is he works for a services provider not directly for the law firm, so usually not as good for him :(
 
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I wouldn't say should, but I think i would like to encourage that. Many other services have this different sort of pay structure for supplying exactly the same service. Bodyguards, drivers etc, they offer the same service but the price can vary drastically. Similar to say driving for example all you have to do is drive to a location. There is only the system and IT that you have supply service to, take a 50 user firm as an example. If it is just one IT guy supplying all the IT services for that role, do you think if it is 50 people at a 100k revenue firm or 50 people at a 10 million k revenue firm should be paid the same salary because the technical skills requirements are the same? This is where the IT sysadmin/system support classification kind of fails to adequately assign the overall value for the service.
 
groen said:
I wouldn't say should, but I think i would like to encourage that. Many other services have this different sort of pay structure for supplying exactly the same service. Bodyguards, drivers etc, they offer the same service but the price can vary drastically. Similar to say driving for example all you have to do is drive to a location. There is only the system and IT that you have supply service to, take a 50 user firm as an example. If it is just one IT guy supplying all the IT services for that role, do you think if it is 50 people at a 100k revenue firm or 50 people at a 10 million k revenue firm should be paid the same salary because the technical skills requirements are the same? This is where the IT sysadmin/system support classification kind of fails to adequately assign the overall value for the service.
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the people working for the 10 million revenue firm will probbaly be providing a much higher quality of service, same with the body guards/drivers.

You have to do something to justify the extra price you're charging.


would you buy the same can of beans can of beans for double the price just because the shop has a higher profit margin or would you go elsewhere?


As that's what you're proposing is to a company.
 
groen said:
If it is just one IT guy supplying all the IT services for that role, do you think if it is 50 people at a 100k revenue firm or 50 people at a 10 million k revenue firm should be paid the same salary because the technical skills requirements are the same? This is where the IT sysadmin/system support classification kind of fails to adequately assign the overall value for the service.
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Of course they should be paid the same.

A while back I tried to explain it to you, but you ignored it. You've still not managed to grasp it, and you're still bleating on about nonsense claiming IT is much more important than it is.

You're a cost, like a cleaner or like paying tax. You're ten a penny and there are lots of people who will do your job.

Why on earth would people value IT folks more than they do just now? If you hired a tradesman to put an extension on your house you would pay the going rate, you wouldn't spurt cash all over him for no reason. If there were a great deal of unemployed tradesmen around then the going rate would be lower, and again you wouldn't pay more.

I'm running out of ideas on how to explain this to you. I don't want to insult you, but I'm getting to the point where I believe you're either incapable of grasping a very easy concept, or you're unwilling.
 
The Halk said:
Of course they should be paid the same.

A while back I tried to explain it to you, but you ignored it. You've still not managed to grasp it, and you're still bleating on about nonsense claiming IT is much more important than it is.

You're a cost, like a cleaner or like paying tax. You're ten a penny and there are lots of people who will do your job.

Why on earth would people value IT folks more than they do just now? If you hired a tradesman to put an extension on your house you would pay the going rate, you wouldn't spurt cash all over him for no reason. If there were a great deal of unemployed tradesmen around then the going rate would be lower, and again you wouldn't pay more.

I'm running out of ideas on how to explain this to you. I don't want to insult you, but I'm getting to the point where I believe you're either incapable of grasping a very easy concept, or you're unwilling.
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Well this is exactly the sort of attitude that I am trying to change. IT sysadmin/system support add value to modern day businesses and they should be adequately compensated for that.
 
At the end of the day there's just one thing that matters in business, £££.

If they don't need to pay more to get the job done they won't, may not be 'right' but it's the way it is.

Would you not entertain the idea of leaving for a higher paid position somewhere else?
 
groen said:
Well this is exactly the sort of attitude that I am trying to change. IT sysadmin/system support add value to modern day businesses and they should be adequately compensated for that.
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System support/administration don't add any value. They're a necessary thing. You're already adequately compensated.
 
groen said:
Well this is exactly the sort of attitude that I am trying to change. IT sysadmin/system support add value to modern day businesses and they should be adequately compensated for that.
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They are adequately compensated. If they were not, no one would take the jobs.

There are many many many people who can and will do your job for your wage, or less, and do as good a job, or better.

Why should they pay you more money?
 
groen said:
The receptionist is on a better salary than me and all she does is look pretty all day and answer the phone, oh and collect guests from downstairs. Definitely does not create wealth or add value any more than IT. But she is internal, gets private healthcare, big bonus etc.
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Logical way forward is to get breast implants.

Or quit your moaning, head down, get noticed and come back as a contractor.

But I still vote for boobs.
 
PMKeates said:
He claimed they offer no more than the market rate, yet I know very well at least one does.
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For a London law firm I'd probably say your friend was about right, just think as groen is working through a managed services co he's getting more of a bum deal than if he was direct.

Out of interest groen which services co is it you work through, one of the biggies?
 
I have my own sob story, I'm in the lowest industry apprenticeship in south wales by a good £4k a year, which is forcing me to have to comute 92 miles a day as renting is out of my price range.
Once i Finish my time i'll be on reduced pay till i complete my competences, which are in fact what im tested on in my trade test and it takes a minimum of 6 months to complete. All the reduced pay is not paid back to me.
Once I've done my competences i then am either forced into a fep or f grade, whislt all the other technicians in my area are on E grades a £8K a year difference with bupa healthcare and its next to impossible to get a grade rise.
And to finish the kick in the teeth, we've been told no matter what grades we get in our hnc we will not be put onto either the hnd day release or degree option, whilst guys that do exactly the same academic but no where near the level of technical course are going to be made engineers and leading hands infront of us.
Also if i were to join the company with exactly the same qualifications and experiance I'd be placed on E band...

So to summerised, i'm underpaid, overworked, have no chance of promotion or increased responsibilty and placed below anyone that joins the company and the company wonders why there is a high turn over of apprentices.

Lets just say unless something drastically changes I'm out of here, theres no point staying in a job with no future prospects.
 
You do get a bit more pay direct Ev0 but not that much. I have seen jobs for these law firms that are direct that are not much more or no more than going through a managed services company. The large ones will often have a support desk and they will have 2nd line support engineers that will be 1st line as well, who's job can vary significantly. In the larger law firms it is not common that the IT director and what is called third line support will be out sourced.
 
groen said:
You do get a bit more pay direct Ev0 but not that much. I have seen jobs for these law firms that are direct that are not much more or no more than going through a managed services company. The large ones will often have a support desk and they will have 2nd line support engineers that will be 1st line as well, who's job can vary significantly. In the larger law firms it is not common that the IT director and what is called third line support will be out sourced.
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It's the worst of the worst working for a reseller/VAR/managed services though. You don't get a minute to stop and think.
 
groen said:
Well this is exactly the sort of attitude that I am trying to change. IT sysadmin/system support add value to modern day businesses and they should be adequately compensated for that.
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Enabling is not the same as adding value.

Eating basic food enables me to live, eating healthy food adds value by being more nutritious (and more enjoyable to eat). You are basic food.
 
OP you are probably not worth 30k tbh.. There are millions of people that would chop their left one off for half of that.

At the end of the day, pay is based on what companies think you are worth, not what you think you are worth.
 
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