Diplomatic Immunity

Soldato
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Same and I hear it in that accent too.
Me too, in that deep South African accent.

The last time the Americans waived diplomatic immunity was back in the 1940's and this was for an American diplomat that was found by the British to be passing secrets to the Nazis. I strongly suspect they won't be waiving it for Ms Sacoolas for what they see as a tragic accident but an accident nonetheless.
 
Caporegime
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He didn't say it was ok, try and control your derangement syndrome. He said he's going to try and arrange a meeting.

Clearly more ******** from Trump

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-49995867

A woman at the centre of a row over diplomatic immunity will not return to the UK, according to briefing notes held by US President Donald Trump.

Anne Sacoolas is suspected of being involved in a car crash that killed British motorcyclist Harry Dunn, who died in Northamptonshire on 27 August.

Mrs Sacoolas later left the UK to return home to the US, after telling local police she had no such plans.

The note was photographed as Mr Trump addressed reporters at the White House.

It reads: "(If raised) Note, as Secretary Pompeo told Foreign Secretary Raab, that the spouse of the US government employee will not return to the United Kingdom."

Mr Dunn's mother Charlotte Charles said the US's apparent approach was "beyond any realm of human thinking".
 
Associate
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Actually, what Trump has said, with regards to seeing if a meet up can be done between the woman and the family, would clearly be US based, and the family allowed to enter the US to do so. And the note that was photographed doesn't mean this is impossible, as the woman will not leave US soil. So its still in the realm of possibility for this to happen in that sense.
 
Soldato
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There isnt much hope of getting her back to the UK. Countries just never give up their diplomats. If it was reversed the UK would likely be doing the same. Ours tend to be a lot less clumsy though.
 
Caporegime
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I probably should have put employee as I didn't mean to infer anything nefarious with spy, it's just what someone said. The main crux being that since he wasn't officially registered as a diplomat then diplomatic immunity didn't apply.

Wasn't it reported that there was some agreement giving these NSA/CIA types diplomatic immunity too while posted to these types of facilities?
 
Soldato
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Correct. Plus the husband isn't a regular diplomat associated with the Embassy or near to London. He works on a base that is suspected deals with the US' spying network.

Yep and these days with intelligence they pretty much say the wife is in on it to some extent. In the UK when you apply for a DV they interview your partner as well as they assume you're going to share at least some info with them.
 
Soldato
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Wasn't it reported that there was some agreement giving these NSA/CIA types diplomatic immunity too while posted to these types of facilities?

Yeah that was mentioned too, but the interviewee seemed to be arguing the technicality that he hadn't registered somewhere that was required to be granted DI status, I was only half listening to that bit tbh and his objection doesn't seem to have got any traction in the news.
 
Soldato
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Yep and these days with intelligence they pretty much say the wife is in on it to some extent. In the UK when you apply for a DV they interview your partner as well as they assume you're going to share at least some info with them.
Yes that his highly likely as well.
They are making a fuss that she said to the police she was not going to leave the country and then did. Even if she had told the police that she plans to leave on the next plane there is simply nothing they could have done about it.
 
Caporegime
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It's ridiculous that someone who is not even a diplomat is granted immunity, what were the UK thinking when they allowed her to fly back to the US?

Diplomatic immunity should only ever apply to acts committed during the course of ones duty, as it stands it is a stone age law that allows serious criminals to walk free from crimes like murder committed in their own personal time.
 
Commissario
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Energize, are you aware that people tend to do diplomatic jobs for long periods of time, and that people tend to like to have their family with them.

That usually leaves the diplomat open to pressure from the "locals" unless their family are offered the same level of protection against nonsense.

Also the woman was the wife of someone working for the American government, IIRC US military and government aircraft taking off from the US military bases don't have UK immigration and customs checking who get on them usually.
 
Commissario
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Yes. I don't see the relevance.
As freakbro says try reading the next line of the post.

Almost all diplomatic and a lot of intelligence postings abroad tend to be "long term", that means they're usually a family posting in any country that isn't "actively hostile" - so the US sending someone to the UK for a role they're expected to be in for a year+ will normally result in any family (spouse, children etc) having the option to go with them, even postings from the US to say Russia will often be "family" ones*.

Now imagine for a second you're in say Russia with your wife or daughter and they don't have the same protection you do under the conventions, and a police officer decides to stop them for a made up offence and they refuse to pay the "fine" - that puts your family at risk but you (and your government) can't do much, now if that stop was directed by the KGB (back in the day, or whatever they are now), it means that your family are now under the control of a foreign government and they could use that very easily to try and get you to hand over information they want, or at least force your government to replace you because you are now compromised (you can't be trusted not to put family over country).

Hence diplomatic staff usually have immunity for their family, there is also an element of the fact that many diplomatic staff may be married to a spouse who is not technically a diplomat but expected to play host at events and offer support, and even official vehicles have a level of immunity because otherwise having the local police harass the drivers of the vehicles is a great way to interfere with the work of the consulate without technically touching the status of the diplomat themselves.

It's all about understanding how and why diplomats have the immunities they do, how in the past shortfalls in it have led to extensions to cover things like the family or official transport.
Fortunately it's relatively rare for a proper member of the diplomatic staff (or their family) to commit a serious crime, as one of the things most countries look for in their diplomatic staff is good behaviour in both the staffer and their family as the last thing they want is an incident in a friendly country, let alone in one that their relationships are less than great.
It's incredibly rare for it to be actively abused with the intent to commit major crimes.

Having said all this, I'm sure I heard that the woman in this case was not covered by diplomatic immunity and neither was her husband, but rather the common case of US military/intelligence personal who commit crimes in a foreign country getting rapidly shipped out and the US playing their "we don't extradite our employees to anyone even for obvious crimes, or even to countries whose law enforcement is respectable and we have an agreement with that allows us to call for extradition of people for very minor offences".


*Most governments recognise that unless you're in a combat zone/high risk area people tend to cope better with family so they're less likely to request a return to the home country which is costly both in money and loss of experience in post (especially true in countries where the culture may be very different or high stress but low physical risk such as say Russia).
 
Soldato
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Having said all this, I'm sure I heard that the woman in this case was not covered by diplomatic immunity and neither was her husband, but rather the common case of US military/intelligence personal who commit crimes in a foreign country getting rapidly shipped out and the US playing their "we don't extradite our employees to anyone even for obvious crimes, or even to countries whose law enforcement is respectable and we have an agreement with that allows us to call for extradition of people for very minor offences".
There was a suspicion that she (and her husband) did not have immunity because the husband, Jonathan Sacoolas doesn't appear on the official diplomatic list. The Foreign Office has since explained that he doesn't appear on the diplomatic list because it only contains the names of people based in missions in London. He does though indeed have diplomatic status.

You are also right to mention that even vehicles can be assigned diplomatic status so it is quite sensible and normal to extend that to the families of diplomats for the reasons you mentioned as an example.
 
Caporegime
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So...can we Grant someone diplomatic immunity, send them over there and have them snipe Trump? Of course not acting on any orders of the state. Honest.

Only using that as a point to show how ridiculously easily the whole thing could and has no doubt been abused.
 
Caporegime
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So...can we Grant someone diplomatic immunity, send them over there and have them snipe Trump? Of course not acting on any orders of the state. Honest.

Only using that as a point to show how ridiculously easily the whole thing could and has no doubt been abused.

That's actually a fair point - how far does immunity extend?
 
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