DirectX 12

Gregster · 19 Mar 2014 at 10:30

Kaapstad said:
Another thread on Mantle.

I am off to the Dentist in a few minutes but it is more fun than reading another Mantle thread.

meldarthx · 19 Mar 2014 at 10:33

Actually before dismissing this; the facts fit a little closer than a lot will want to admit. People keep forgetting the elephant in the room.....

XboxOne hardware......what is it based off of?

MS is now backtracking from earlier statements of wanting to walk away from DX from a couple years ago.

The tools for XboxOne are a mess; compaired to PS4 - which was the op for the beginning with 360 and PS3. Easiest way to do that is talk to the people that designed the hardware. This time around MS doesn't own the soc; its still AMD's baby; people that know it best are AMD.

So those scoffing at MS adopting Mantle as being silly; bs......I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this; follow the logic; follow the hardware and see where it leads....back to AMD

Marine-RX179 · 19 Mar 2014 at 10:33

Gregster said:
I see this as a possibility if MS weren't already working on DX12 way back when and only took notice when Mantle was all the talk. If they have nothing, it makes sense to grab this from AMD.

But the questions is...how much work and investment has M$ really put into the research and development for dx12? Was it really going to make a huge impact on actually improving things, or was just a case of "doing it for the money grabbing campaign for poster waving for next windows in line"?

May be whatever improvement the dx12 M$ originally had in mind simply looks like a joke comparing to what Mantle can already do in the current trials and errors state

If it works out better budget wise for M$ to scrap the original dx12 in development and can work out a deal with AMD and rebrand Mantle and have input on improving it and make it works with Nvidia as well than to suddenly have to increase investment on time and resources and budget on research and development for making dx12 to do what Mantle already can do, then I don't see why M$ wouldn't do it.

Of course, the above are just speculations.

Personally I would prefer M$ to just take Mantle, improve on it and make it works for Nvidia as well and call that dx12 than for them to just make dx12 only to replicate what mostly Mantle can do and largely similar to it (in the sense of removing/reducing CPU overheads etc).

humbug · 19 Mar 2014 at 10:34

meldarthx said:
Actually before dismissing this; the facts fit a little closer than a lot will want to admit. People keep forgetting the elephant in the room.....

XboxOne hardware......what is it based off of? MS is now backtracking from earlier statements of wanting to walk away from DX from a couple years ago.

The tools for XboxOne are a mess; compaired to PS4 - which was the op for the beginning with 360 and PS3. Easiest way to do that is talk to the people that designed the hardware. This time around MS doesn't own the soc; its still AMD's baby; people that know it best are AMD.

So those scoffing at MS adopting Mantle as being silly; bs......I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this; follow the logic; follow the hardware and see where it leads....back to AMD

This ^^^

meldarthx · 19 Mar 2014 at 10:35

jayenh said:
Are the chips in the xbone mantle capable? I have no real knowledge of this stuff, I'm just wondering if this is something they want to apply to the xbox since its performance is down on the PS4, which could then lead to more mantle titles for the PC as more cross-platform developers adopt it.

Yes; both xboxone and PS4 are mantle capable.....as the graphics are based off gcn 1.1......

mmj_uk · 19 Mar 2014 at 10:44

jayenh said:
Are the chips in the xbone mantle capable? I have no real knowledge of this stuff, I'm just wondering if this is something they want to apply to the xbox since its performance is down on the PS4, which could then lead to more mantle titles for the PC as more cross-platform developers adopt it.

I'd be surprised if Xbone One would see any significant benefit from Mantle as developers should already be able to programme at a low level on it, low level programming on consoles is one of the reasons why consoles in the past have usually performed admirably compared to massively more powerful PC's using DirectX.

Mantle is a PC technology to try to solve the age old issue of low level programming on a zillion different GPU's, albeit it is limited to GCN based cards for the time being so it hasn't solved much so far.

andybird123 · 19 Mar 2014 at 10:45

meldarthx said:
Actually before dismissing this; the facts fit a little closer than a lot will want to admit. People keep forgetting the elephant in the room.....

XboxOne hardware......what is it based off of? MS is now backtracking from earlier statements of wanting to walk away from DX from a couple years ago.

The tools for XboxOne are a mess; compaired to PS4 - which was the op for the beginning with 360 and PS3. Easiest way to do that is talk to the people that designed the hardware. This time around MS doesn't own the soc; its still AMD's baby; people that know it best are AMD.

So those scoffing at MS adopting Mantle as being silly; bs......I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this; follow the logic; follow the hardware and see where it leads....back to AMD

No one is saying that it isnt plausible, half the members on this forum have posited this idea as far back as November when Mantle was first introduced, the point is that when *I* say it it is for free and it is a pure guess, so without any actual quote from an AMD or MS employee saying such, this article from Charlie is pure hyperbole

If DX12 supports current Nvidia cards, then that is pretty strong evidence that the similarites between mantle and DX12 are only skin deep

shankly1985 · 19 Mar 2014 at 11:19

Now this is going to be fun.

meldarthx · 19 Mar 2014 at 11:19

andybird123 said:
No one is saying that it isnt plausible, half the members on this forum have posited this idea as far back as November when Mantle was first introduced, the point is that when *I* say it it is for free and it is a pure guess, so without any actual quote from an AMD or MS employee saying such, this article from Charlie is pure hyperbole

If DX12 supports current Nvidia cards, then that is pretty strong evidence that the similarites between mantle and DX12 are only skin deep

Considering there is no Nvidia that's 11.2 fully compatible

I'd say dx 12 nope.....

I wasn't even quoting Charlie - and you do make a good point; but Nvidia has created problems before with DX adoption by dragging their feet or refusing to be fully compatible with features.

Large chuck of games are made console first; lead platform is PS4 because ease of tools; we already know most of the instructions will directly translate easily from PS4 to mantle; this has been said.

We also know that Xbox1 tool set is a mess; this is coming from Devs themselves say Xbox1 tool set is similar to mess PS3's toolset when it first came out and until Sony had fixed PS3's toolset it wouldn't ever be considered for lead platform.

Sony fixed the toolsets on PS3 and it became the lead platform for last gen. PS4 is already lead platform and if Xbox1 wants to be even considered it has to fix its tools as they are broken.

Easiest way - goto the people that know the hardware best AMD; they have it.....and boom crossplatform gaming will look even better.....Xbox1 won't ever be able to catch PS4 but it can come a lot closer will proper tools....

Boomstick777 · 19 Mar 2014 at 11:22

mmj_uk said:
I'd be surprised if Xbone One would see any significant benefit from Mantle as developers should already be able to programme at a low level on it, low level programming on consoles is one of the reasons why consoles in the past have usually performed admirably compared to massively more powerful PC's using DirectX.

Mantle is a PC technology to try to solve the age old issue of low level programming on a zillion different GPU's, albeit it is limited to GCN based cards for the time being so it hasn't solved much so far.

Exactly, the idea behind Mantle was to bring the PC closer to the metal akin to how the consoles are already close to the metal..

Direct X12 on consoles / PC / Phone, Tablet could make cross platform porting much easier though. If everyone was using the same API thing are simplified. You simply use the lowest settings for phone mid settings for Xbone @ 720P etc, then scale the visual fidelity up for the PC.

Orangey · 19 Mar 2014 at 14:00

Most likely it will be conceptual, as in "based on the ideas cooked up in xbone development alongside AMD", not "literally Mantle replacing DX".

vsg28 · 19 Mar 2014 at 14:06

Charlie isn't the only one who considered this angle: http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...rectx-12-will-imitate-and-destroy-amds-mantle

andybird123 · 19 Mar 2014 at 14:08

meldarthx said:
Considering there is no Nvidia that's 11.2 fully compatible I'd say dx 12 nope...

Thing is, Amd say they are 100% 11.2 compliant, however they dont support command lists (driver mutlithreading)... Nvidia support all of the gaming/performance parts of DX11.2 (MS even used an nvidia card to demo the main new performance feature of 11.2 - tiled resources) so if a game were released using 11.2 it would work just fine, so nvidia's compliance with DX12 could be similar, so performance would be fine

meldarthx · 19 Mar 2014 at 14:45

andybird123 said:
Thing is, Amd say they are 100% 11.2 compliant, however they dont support command lists (driver mutlithreading)... Nvidia support all of the gaming/performance parts of DX11.2 (MS even used an nvidia card to demo the main new performance feature of 11.2 - tiled resources) so if a game were released using 11.2 it would work just fine, so nvidia's compliance with DX12 could be similar, so performance would be fine

hehe I did say Nvidia wasn't fully compliant with dx 11.1 and 11.2 - AMD says they are; and latest beta say they. Command lists is one of the optionals for DX. They can handle command lists....*shrugs* its just not implimented into the drivers....there's only two games that have it Civ 5; and AC;

Guy that created Civ 5 is now working on stardock engine with mantle

we're way off topic now.

MS dev tools for Xbox one are mess; quickest way to fix it is help from AMD; there is no ifs ands or buts about this. GCN rules the eco roost for gaming; with holding X1 and PS4

humbug · 19 Mar 2014 at 14:51

andybird123 said:
Thing is, Amd say they are 100% 11.2 compliant, however they dont support command lists (driver mutlithreading)... Nvidia support all of the gaming/performance parts of DX11.2 (MS even used an nvidia card to demo the main new performance feature of 11.2 - tiled resources) so if a game were released using 11.2 it would work just fine, so nvidia's compliance with DX12 could be similar, so performance would be fine

AMD also support Tiled Resources, which is the main of DX11.2 really.

Final8y · 19 Mar 2014 at 15:21

vsg28 said:
Charlie isn't the only one who considered this angle: http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...rectx-12-will-imitate-and-destroy-amds-mantle

The first comment in that link.

bru · 19 Mar 2014 at 15:22

meldarthx said:
follow the hardware and see where it leads....back to AMD

Hmmm follow the hardware, Ok lets do that.

Xbox one...Mantle compatible

AMD...Mantle compatible

Nvidia... Not compatible

Intel...Not compatible

Qualcomm... Not compatible

Well with more hardware that is confirmed for DirectX 12 being non Mantle compatible than being Mantle compatible, I myself reckon that DirectX 12 is not going to be Microsoft adopting Mantle.

Either way hopefully we will find out tomorrow.

humbug · 19 Mar 2014 at 15:34

bru said:
Hmmm follow the hardware, Ok lets do that.

Xbox one...Mantle compatible

AMD...Mantle compatible

Nvidia... Not compatible

Intel...Not compatible

Qualcomm... Not compatible

Well with more hardware that is confirmed for DirectX 12 being non Mantle compatible than being Mantle compatible, I myself reckon that DirectX 12 is not going to be Microsoft adopting Mantle.

Either way hopefully we will find out tomorrow.

Not yet compatible.

PhysicsMan94 · 19 Mar 2014 at 15:38

I tend to agree that it seems utter tripe that DX12 will literally be Mantle - sure it may contain elements which mirror Mantle features, but Microsoft will not literally just copy and paste Mantle, change a few things and slap a DX12 label on it.

Some people here need to get a grip and realise that AMD really is not as big a player in all of this as you may think, they have literally just released their graphical API and it is still far from perfect (far far from it) - Microsoft, no matter how much a lot of you people seem to love jumping on the internet bandwagon with hating them, have a lot more experience in this market and will not just adopt Mantle and pee off over half of the parties involved within the graphics industry.

humbug · 19 Mar 2014 at 15:45

PhysicsMan94 said:
I tend to agree that it seems utter tripe that DX12 will literally be Mantle - sure it may contain elements which mirror Mantle features, but Microsoft will not literally just copy and paste Mantle, change a few things and slap a DX12 label on it.

Some people here need to get a grip and realise that AMD really is not as big a player in all of this as you may think, they have literally just released their graphical API and it is still far from perfect (far far from it) - Microsoft, no matter how much a lot of you people seem to love jumping on the internet bandwagon with hating them, have a lot more experience in this market and will not just adopt Mantle and pee off over half of the parties involved within the graphics industry.

No body is saying its literally a carbon copy of Mantle, your reading to much into it.

And the only people it might pee off is Nvidia, yet as long as whatever DX12 maybe Nvidia will be happy to adopt it even if it is derived in some way from Mantle, as long no one involved associates it with it or AMD.