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DirectX 12

*sighs* people aren't getting a couple facts. MS dev tools for X1 are a mess; they are as bad as PS3s dev tools when they first came out.

PS4 dev tools are a lot easier to work with and translate very easily over to mantle. Two MS doesn't own the soc like they did with 360; AMD still does. 360 is a dead platform to MS.

They want to tie everyone into X1; win8; win 8 mobile; they need easy dev tools; those can be handed to them by AMD. If you don't think this will happen; AMD's forced Intel to their way before; and Nvidia and AMD have forced each other to follow before.....

Only reason this can happen is AMD controls the consoles.....if you don't think that doesn't carry any weight.......this will translate....
 
The thing that make me think this isn't going to happen, is that why would a company like AMD (who are not the biggest player in the market) go through all the trouble of building, announcing, marketing, working with developers and finally releasing Mantle, just to have it absorbed by Microsoft (the biggest player in the game) two months latter.
If this was the case they must have known about it so why would they expend all the time and resources to plug their new technology when after two months it was going to become somebody else's project, or do you think that Microsoft is going to give up control of DirectX 12 to somebody else?
 
bru said:
The thing that make me think this isn't going to happen, is that why would a company like AMD (who are not the biggest player in the market) go through all the trouble of building, announcing, marketing, working with developers and finally releasing Mantle, just to have it absorbed by Microsoft (the biggest player in the game) two months latter.
If this was the case they must have known about it so why would they expend all the time and resources to plug their new technology when after two months it was going to become somebody else's project, or do you think that Microsoft is going to give up control of DirectX 12 to somebody else?
Click to expand...

AMD and those developers have for years wanted Mircosoft to do what AMD has done.

Now that Mantle is here and every other API developer jumping on the lower level bandwagon Microsoft are being squeezed in to a position where they are much less relevant if not a long way from entirely irrelevant.

Microsoft will not loose control of DirectX if they absorb Mantle, it takes what developers want and makes it their own.

AMD and those developers get what they want.
 
I don't think Mantle can be considered anywhere near ready to be the main api for gaming. It's a dangerous strategy should that be what is happening.

Lifting certain aspects from Mantle would be fine, totally lifting Mantle. It's not an API deserving of being THE de facto api for games. It has an immense amount of work to be worthy of the games line-up it currently has in the first place.

Don't get me wrong I am still excited for the potential of Mantle, but it's far too early for it to be claimed a success. It's certainly too early to become the new Directx. We know AMD are involved with Directx12 in some way. I am hoping it's purely lifted some of the features of Mantle and not just being Mantle itself.
 
http://translate.google.cz/translat...md-grafikkort-cryengine-far-mantle-stoed.html

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...23+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

looks like one of the stories was removed, I only one other place posted what looks like a press release.

Sounds a bit like someone sent out a press release early or a couple places posted it before an embargo was up.... or could be fake. Probably know in the next couple days.

Worth pointing out that Star Citizen is using the Cryengine and will support Mantle, but that support was being added by them rather than Crytek but Crytek have previously said they are evaluating Mantle and it looks great so far(back in December or something) so wouldn't be that surprising.
 
PhysicsMan94 said:
I tend to agree that it seems utter tripe that DX12 will literally be Mantle - sure it may contain elements which mirror Mantle features, but Microsoft will not literally just copy and paste Mantle, change a few things and slap a DX12 label on it.

Some people here need to get a grip and realise that AMD really is not as big a player in all of this as you may think, they have literally just released their graphical API and it is still far from perfect (far far from it) - Microsoft, no matter how much a lot of you people seem to love jumping on the internet bandwagon with hating them, have a lot more experience in this market and will not just adopt Mantle and pee off over half of the parties involved within the graphics industry.
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I don't know what DX12 will be, we will find out tomorrow, but it's hardly "utter tripe" to think that DX12 and Mantle will have a lot in common.

And AMD are the biggest player in all of this. Their hardware is in both consoles, they are in the CPU business, the GPU business and the big into the APU business. And now they have done a lot of the foundation work in developing a new low level API. How much more of a player can you be??

AMD have also said they are Beta Testing mantle on GCN, but that it isn't a big deal to modify it to work on other architectures. And this makes sense because if it only worked on GCN then it would be a fail.

Maybe Microsoft don't want to reinvent the wheel, that mantle has been tested and proven pretty successful that even in it's early beta stage shows that it can offer good performance increases. It should be pretty easy to implement Mantle into DX12 using extensions for each graphic system out there.

Actually the more I think about it the more I think maybe that's what's going to happen.
 
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bru said:
The thing that make me think this isn't going to happen, is that why would a company like AMD (who are not the biggest player in the market) go through all the trouble of building, announcing, marketing, working with developers and finally releasing Mantle, just to have it absorbed by Microsoft (the biggest player in the game) two months latter.
If this was the case they must have known about it so why would they expend all the time and resources to plug their new technology when after two months it was going to become somebody else's project, or do you think that Microsoft is going to give up control of DirectX 12 to somebody else?
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Well maybe I am thinking about this all wrong, but I think that for AMD, getting Microsoft to use Mantle would be an amazing coup. It would also really blur the lines between xbox one games and PC games.

IF Microsoft and AMD are in partnership, you would have to have the AMD logo on every piece of software developed using directx 12, not just Microsoft's. It would be amazing for brand awareness.

I am pretty sure there are more advantages for moving the whole lot under DX12, probably some disadvantages too.
 
Just a correction all three new consoles and 2 of the three last gen consoles use AMD gpus. There is no bigger player in gaming right now, gaming evolved is in more titles than Nvidia are these days and this has only been increasing in the past couple years(as game dev's started to realise what was in the consoles). Out of the PS4/x1/wii u/wii/360/ps3 ONE of these consoles didn't have an AMD chip in it.

AMD have been heavily involved in DX's implementation for years, MS don't work on it alone in isolation, they get input from the entire industry. Likewise AMD dev support teams have worked on thousands of games with hundreds of companies helping them get games working, working with the hardware. They've worked with memory companies to come up with almost all the key memory technologies used with graphics cards in the past 7-8 years.

AMD aren't a big player only if you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the gaming market. In the next probably 6 years at least 9 out of 10 consoles sold will have an AMD gpu in it, the majority an AMD cpu and AMD will work with game dev's on probably the majority of AAA titles coming out in the next 6-7 years.
 
drunkenmaster said:
AMD aren't a big player only if you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the gaming market.
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And AMD is a big player only if you hold shares in the company and constantly post large comments praising them whilst doing everything you can to give Nvidia bad press.

Anyway, nobody has said that AMD are not a big player in the gaming market - however it would be erroneous to say that they are big player in the area of graphics APIs such as DirectX and OpenGL. They barely have any experience, compared to Microsoft's years of experience in this sector - but I'm sure that everyone will jump on this and start screaming and shouting about how bad Microsoft and DX is, as lots of people seem to love doing these days; despite them not realising how much Microsoft has actually done for the technological industry (including software development and so forth) as a whole.
 
PhysicsMan94 said:
And AMD is a big player only if you hold shares in the company and constantly post large comments praising them whilst doing everything you can to give Nvidia bad press.

Anyway, nobody has said that AMD are not a big player in the gaming market - however it would be erroneous to say that they are big player in the area of graphics APIs such as DirectX and OpenGL. They barely have any experience, compared to Microsoft's years of experience in this sector - but I'm sure that everyone will jump on this and start screaming and shouting about how bad Microsoft and DX is, as lots of people seem to love doing these days; despite them not realising how much Microsoft has actually done for the technological industry (including software development and so forth) as a whole.
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Firstly someone DID say AMD isn't a big player, so you're wrong there. Secondly they are the biggest player in pc/console gaming, full stop. Lastly, AMD has no experience with graphics API's, sure, okay. AMD makes a chip and has zero idea of the software sides of them at all, sure, makes perfect sense and doesn't come across as BS at all.

There is no way AMD has been heavily involved in DX's development for years and openGL, they haven't had to code drivers to work with all the API's since they started making graphics hardware, they absolutely didn't help any company they've worked with, Nintendo, MS or Sony while the API's on those consoles were written... AMD has no experience because you say so. They've learnt absolutely nothing about graphics API's while writing tools drivers and been involved in more gaming platforms than anyone else.

AMD will have been involved in DX, openGL, api's on all three current gen consoles and two of the last gen consoles, name a company more widely involved in graphics API's. Name another company with their own API, that is working better than others currently, that makes their own hardware and is the architecture behind every current gen console and the majority of the last gen consoles.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Firstly someone DID say AMD isn't a big player, so you're wrong there. Secondly they are the biggest player in pc/console gaming, full stop. Lastly, AMD has no experience with graphics API's, sure, okay. AMD makes a chip and has zero idea of the software sides of them at all, sure, makes perfect sense and doesn't come across as BS at all.

There is no way AMD has been heavily involved in DX's development for years and openGL, they haven't had to code drivers to work with all the API's since they started making graphics hardware, they absolutely didn't help any company they've worked with, Nintendo, MS or Sony while the API's on those consoles were written... AMD has no experience because you say so. They've learnt absolutely nothing about graphics API's while writing tools drivers and been involved in more gaming platforms than anyone else.

AMD will have been involved in DX, openGL, api's on all three current gen consoles and two of the last gen consoles, name a company more widely involved in graphics API's. Name another company with their own API, that is working better than others currently, that makes their own hardware and is the architecture behind every current gen console and the majority of the last gen consoles.
Click to expand...

Okay, yes I know they have been involved with the development of DX and OpenGL (the latter is debatable as AMD OGL performance is crap) however you seem to be implying that they have consistently been the major players of the graphical API market - and I'm sure you realise that DirectX is still a Microsoft product which has been predominantly developed by Microsoft (and AMD are certainly not the only contributors to DX, Nvidia and Intel have had extensive input too).

And indeed, they have their own API now - but, from what I've read, it is riddled with bugs and hardly works properly. I know it's early days yet, but it certainly hasn't been the smoothest of releases for AMD and it is not even close to becoming the mainstream API in the graphics industry (it's a 2 month old product for goodness sake).

But, anyway, I feel that any debate here will just be an uphill battle as you continue to sing the praises of AMD as if they are a perfect company. I am a fan of Nvidia but I do appreciate that they have done some things "incorrectly" and that AMD has outplayed them a few times, funny how perspective swings wildly to one side when you have a vested interest in the financials of a company though.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Just a correction all three new consoles and 2 of the three last gen consoles use AMD gpus. There is no bigger player in gaming right now, gaming evolved is in more titles than Nvidia are these days and this has only been increasing in the past couple years(as game dev's started to realise what was in the consoles). Out of the PS4/x1/wii u/wii/360/ps3 ONE of these consoles didn't have an AMD chip in it.

AMD have been heavily involved in DX's implementation for years, MS don't work on it alone in isolation, they get input from the entire industry. Likewise AMD dev support teams have worked on thousands of games with hundreds of companies helping them get games working, working with the hardware. They've worked with memory companies to come up with almost all the key memory technologies used with graphics cards in the past 7-8 years.

AMD aren't a big player only if you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the gaming market. In the next probably 6 years at least 9 out of 10 consoles sold will have an AMD gpu in it, the majority an AMD cpu and AMD will work with game dev's on probably the majority of AAA titles coming out in the next 6-7 years.
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Sometimes I have to lol at you Charlie, AMD are very much small time, they have less than 10% market share. AMD with all those fingers in those console pies, yet cannot make a profit, their last couple of fiscal years reported losses. Ok a profit this quarter but 2014 outlook is looking not very rosy in the slightest. To take anything away from nVidia's 90% market share they will have to do a lot more than have a few GPU's in some consoles. There is no bigger player in gaming right now ? Only you could believe that.
 
LambChop said:
Sometimes I have to lol at you Charlie, AMD are very much small time, they have less than 10% market share. AMD with all those fingers in those console pies, yet cannot make a profit, their last couple of fiscal years reported losses. Ok a profit this quarter but 2014 outlook is looking not very rosy in the slightest. To take anything away from nVidia's 90% market share they will have to do a lot more than have a few GPU's in some consoles. There is no bigger player in gaming right now ? Only you could believe that.
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Your sig is perfect for your comment
 
triss said:
Hopefully you dont mean mantle that has 2 games and doesnt work for all amd's hardware even yet?
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Would you agree that for an Alpha it's about where it should be? It's not a final release nor even a Beta. Mantle is quit simply an Alpha product which should be expected to have problem's.
 
LambChop said:
Course I'm an nVidia fanboy, doesnt make anything I've said anything less factual.
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Well the absolutely and completely incorrect 90% market share that Nvidia have is... completely incorrect. You are right though, being an Nvidia fanboy doesn't make anything you've said less factual. If you weren't an Nvidia fanboy what you've said is still completely wrong, being a fanboy has nothing to do with how completely wrong you are.

AMD ARE a bigger graphics market share than Nvidia flat out, factual EVERYONE knows this. Nvidia have a higher discrete gpu market share by not a huge margin, of all gpu's sold AMD is quite a bit ahead of Nvidia. On PC Nvidia is about a 16% market share, AMD around 21-22%, Intel the rest.

Again I said of the GAMING MARKET. Probably 70%(at least) of discrete gpu's aren't ever used for games, 95% of the low end gpu's Nvidia sells are used in business computers and never ever touch a game.

Intel aren't a gaming gpu maker, you can game on them and people do, but Intel doesn't give a damn about gaming and not a single game out there aims at Intel for games, not a one. It's all Nvidia or AMD and categorically AMD sells more gpus for games.

90% market share... how insane that is, is that I wouldn't even expect Gregster or MjFrosty to make such a ludicrous claim.
 
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