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DirectX 12

I wouldn't read too much about a subscription service and it was just a whisper being bandied about. I often wonder if these rumors get started by in-house employee's, just to get a feel for what people think. If you look at GPU prices prior to launch and even in early stages, they are generally close to the launch prices.

As far as DX12 goes, why wouldn't game devs code for both DX11 and DX12? They already do this/did this for other DX variants.

Well this is also the thing, they most likely will, although it's required a good few of the big time players to re-think and in some cases start from scratch with their engines. This is what people don't really grasp yet. It's something that we've not seen from a Mantle title yet. That's not to say that it wouldn't be beneficial to do the same for a Mantle title, but Direct3D is still the biggest player.
 
lol, steady on. Get 1.0 out first :p



How can you possibly say that? Like I said, it's not even about 'Mantle' supporting it. It's more down to the developers, and I bet you your two 290s this time next year a majority will choose not to.

Also, I've heard from several sources that Win9 will be a free upgrade.

The point is AMD can update and improve Mantle as quickly as they like. There is nothing holding them back like... Microsoft. They don't have to wait for anyones approval or collaboration. As soon as they have new ideas to improve performance or features they can do it and get it out the door quickly. DX11 - six years, two updates neither of which changed a whole lot. In six years time we can look back and see how much Mantle has changed, if it's still going then.

Because OS users who don't upgrade will have the opportunity to use an API (on certain games) that is equal to, or faster than DX12 without having to change their OS. Whatever way you look at it, that is a plus for AMD/Mantle. Mantle is not tied to one specific Windows OS, unlike DX12. I assume Win8 users get DX12, or do they only get 90% of the features? Surely MS will give them the full DX12.
 
The point is AMD can update and improve Mantle as quickly as they like. There is nothing holding them back like... Microsoft. They don't have to wait for anyones approval or collaboration.

And who is holding Microsoft back now exactly? DX12 effectively removes the magic driver 'buffer' from Direct3D, thus there isn't really any reason for a middle man any more.

I still think you're reading way too much into the OS support. Platforms get old, then they get discontinued. If you want the best experience then you simply run the latest platform.

It was true for Windows XP to Vista and to Windows 7, and it's still true now. Just because you can support all platforms doesn't mean it's the better solution.
 
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And who is holding Microsoft back now exactly? DX12 effectively removes the magic driver 'buffer' from Direct3D, thus there isn't really any reason for a middle man any more.

I still think you're reading way too much into the OS support. Platforms get old, then they get discontinued. If you want the best experience then you simply run the latest platform.

It was true for Windows XP to Vista and to Windows 7, and it's still true now. Just because you can support all platforms doesn't mean it's the better solution.

Any update or modification to DX takes a long time was my point. AMD and Mantle will have no such restriction. They don't have to support all these different architectures etc.

EDIT

I wish you'd stop adding to your quote afterwards.

A lot of people won't be upgrading instantly. Just look what happened to the Windows 8 early adopters. If this monthly subscription thing has any truth to it, I'd say adoption rates will be slow, as they were with Windows 8. As for dropping support, isn't it just a case of they won't be adding new things like IE, but will still release security updates and fixes?
 
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I wouldn't read too much about a subscription service and it was just a whisper being bandied about. I often wonder if these rumors get started by in-house employee's, just to get a feel for what people think. If you look at GPU prices prior to launch and even in early stages, they are generally close to the launch prices.

As far as DX12 goes, why wouldn't game devs code for both DX11 and DX12? They already do this/did this for other DX variants.

lol. Microsoft don't care what people think until its too late, See Windows 8 Alpha / Beta testing feedback.
 
Any update or modification to DX takes a long time was my point. AMD and Mantle will have no such restriction. They don't have to support all these different architectures etc.

AMD certainly will have restrictions to what they can do with their API, our current cards don't change to support new features they may bring across which require new cards. Obviously it's not MS like restrictions, but AMD can't just change Mantle (To support newer stuff etc) and hey presto, because our cards wouldn't work (Assuming it was something that required newer hardware parts).

How long will AMD support GCN when they bring out a new arch etc? (No different to DX of course in that regard, I won't pretend it is)
 
lol. Microsoft don't care what people think until its too late, See Windows 8 Alpha / Beta testing feedback.

Microsoft don't seem to care what anyone says, but I think most of the Windows 8 complaints are irrational and moot.

However, we all know the proper start menu is coming back. That Windows 9 leak a page back (Or more if you've got 30 posts a page) could be the latest Windows 8.1 update (I haven't read the article, so don't shoot me down, just MS were branding about their update to Windows because their 8.1 update 1, but then as stupid as they are, they say that start menu update is ages away)
 
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ok this is not about me, i paid for my windows 7, just saying.
but the point is, are we looking to have dx12 as a default api used on all games ? if yes then this wont happen untill it has about 40-50% user base, otherwise devs wont even look at it.
but if you are looking at a couple games per year for the next 4-5 years like for Mantle, then yea why not, make it windows 9 exclusive, put DRM account based, and lets buy win9 and all wait up untill the user base gets the treshold needed for devs to start using it, which wont be 2016 not 2017, or 2018, all these years will be few financed games by microsoft or nvidia each year.

I know the angle you're taking, dx10 & 11 adoption rates were poor to begin with... The os used was little to do with it.

The last Xbox used a custom hybrid DX 9 api, many games are multi platform, so when the lazy port came over....it was in dx9. This time around Microsoft's console will use a modified version of dx12....guess what's going to happen with all those 'ports'?
 
AMD certainly will have restrictions to what they can do with their API, our current cards don't change to support new features they may bring across which require new cards. Obviously it's not MS like restrictions, but AMD can't just change Mantle (To support newer stuff etc) and hey presto, because our cards wouldn't work (Assuming it was something that required newer hardware parts)

How long will AMD support GCN when they bring out a new arch etc? (No different to DX of course in that regard, I won't pretend it is)

They can still take on developer feedback regarding the API and tweak and improve things which can improve performance and then release a Mantle 2.0 etc is what i meant. However sure they can add new features but maybe some of those features might require a new architecture, or it might not. Depends on the feature i suppose.

GCN is not going anywhere anytime soon. :)

Huddy commented on this a bit when talking to Tech Radar.

AMD has been talking about Mantle for what seems like forever now, and yes games are coming out with it, but it's been a jolty launch. Where do things stand with Mantle now? And what's the long-term plan for it?
We've got a release candidate driver at the moment, and we'll wrap that up at some point this year. Then we start to look at things like Mantle 2 and the future, and that's a very interesting space.
Mantle 2 - if it takes us about a year to get through a Mantle iteration - then Mantle 2 will come around the same kind of timeframe as DirectX 12. DX 12 brings a lot of the goodness that Mantle brought. We had a lot of conversations with Microsoft about what we were doing with Mantle, and in those conversations, they said, 'OK, if you really can solve this problem of building a better throughput system that runs on Windows, then we'd like to take that to Windows as well and we'll make that the extra software functionality that comes in DX 12.' So that's how DX 12 has come about.
We'll take the leanings from DX 12 and take it to Mantle. I'm sure they can help us do a better job than we've done. We will also take the extra hardware features with DX 12, and there are at least a couple of key features which are coming there.

They are pixel synchronization, which let you do some cool transparency effects and lighting transparent substances which is very, very hard on the current API. There's something called bindless resources which is a major efficiency improvement again in how the GPU is running, making sure it's not stalling waiting for the CPU to tell it about some of the changes that are needed. At that stage we'll have Mantle 2.0 wrapped up which covers the same kind of functionality as full DX 12 and gives all the performance benefits that Mantle currently gives plus anything else we learn.
Then we look to the future because DX 12 is not the end of graphics. Mantle 3, Mantle 4, etcetera give us the opportunity to expose any of the new features that we develop in our hardware. There are some that have speculated that Mantle will die when DX 12 arrives, that we'll just put it down and walk away it. Heck, why would you need it?
Well, the answer is it's perfect for portability. AMD does graphics in a variety of places, and [Senior Vice President and Global Manager, Global Business Units] Lisa Su mentioned that about half our business by the end of next year will be on the traditional PC platform and the rest will be elsewhere. Elsewhere, there will be AMD graphics.
Forza 5Build graphics, learn, repeat

DirectX is a generic APi. It covers Intel hardware, it covers Nvidia hardware and it covers ours. Being generic means that it will never be perfectly optimized for a particular piece of hardware, where with Mantle we think we can do a better job. The difference will dwindle as DX 12 arrives. I'm sure they'll do a very good job of getting the CPU out of the way, but we'll still have at least corner cases where we can deliver better performance, measurably better performance. We think we have a good future with Mantle, and games developers can tell you they don't want us to drop it afterwards.
 
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I know the angle you're taking, dx10 & 11 adoption rates were poor to begin with... The os used was little to do with it.

The last Xbox used a custom hybrid DX 9 api, many games are multi platform, so when the lazy port came over....it was in dx9. This time around Microsoft's console will use a modified version of dx12....guess what's going to happen with all those 'ports'?

This pretty much.

DX10 was pretty meh, I remember playing Lost Planet 1 in DX10, the differences were subtle, but nice, but the performance loss was terrible.
 
Any update or modification to DX takes a long time was my point. AMD and Mantle will have no such restriction. They don't have to support all these different architectures etc.

EDIT

I wish you'd stop adding to your quote afterwards.

A lot of people won't be upgrading instantly. Just look what happened to the Windows 8 early adopters. If this monthly subscription thing has any truth to it, I'd say adoption rates will be slow, as they were with Windows 8. As for dropping support, isn't it just a case of they won't be adding new things like IE, but will still release security updates and fixes?

I can add what I want, I'm just making sure I cover all possible angles of the absolute
crap
you come out with.

Like looking at early adopters of an operating system. Yeah great point, Matt.

Why don't you go and do some more 'early adopting' of Mantle and run out of VRAM at reasonable resolutions...

Nothing you're saying makes any sense, sorry.


Bottom line and key points.

1) This is a DirectX 12 thread.

2) Mantle is currently bound by DirectX11

3)Increased operating support has no impact on user experience, other than to stretch AMDs resources catering for older platforms

4)Direct3D is still the main player, and Mantle is still in closed testing

5)Refer back to point 4, how can you possibly be so sure about anything.
 
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They can still take on developer feedback regarding the API and tweak and improve things which can improve performance and then release a Mantle 2.0 etc is what i meant. However sure they can add new features but maybe some of those features might require a new architecture, or it might not. Depends on the feature i suppose.

GCN is not going anywhere anytime soon. :)

Huddy commented on this a bit when talking to Tech Radar.

Stuff Microsoft, bring Mantle to Linux and i'm moving in.

BF5 on Linux. yes please.
 
I can add what I want, I'm just making sure I cover all possible angles of the absolute crap you come out with.

Like looking at early adopters of an operating system. Yeah great point, Matt.

Why don't you go and do some more 'early adopting' of Mantle and run out of VRAM at reasonable resolutions...

Nothing you're saying makes any sense, sorry.

I can see there is no point talking to you.
 
How the **** was windows 8 slow to be adopted by end users? They sold 40,000,000 licenses in the first month and according to press releases had sold over 100m by may 2013...8 months after release. If that's a low adoption rate I'd love to see a high one.
 
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