Do you ever replace your aio?

[MartinPrince]

Show me where your science is wiseman before you go off on one. Honestly. so far you have just referred to some junkie on YouTube and nothing to backup your assertion.

You seem to have lost the plot. A CLC is made up of much than just rubber. You will see that it has joints in the metal construction, joints between the hoses and radiators, joints between the rubber hoses and block assembly etc.

You seem to be under the false notion that after years of the water being continually heated and cooled that non of the H20 molecules will find a way out through the many joints etc.

What you will find is people like @Acme who had a CLC for ~5+ years tell you that the performance of their particular CLC got less because the amount of liquid inside was not the same volume as when it was brand new. This is a simple fact; you can choose to believe it or not.

I personally know of 5 original H100i's from 2011 that eventually dropped in performance considerably due to the lack of liquid that was inside. It is one of the reasons that my AIO has a fill port on the side. I like to top it up every 12 months or so.

 

[muon]

https://blog.nzxt.com/does-aio-liquid-evaporate/

NZXT must have some bad engineers for them to allow this article.

Unlike cars, AIOs have very little liquid in them. A small loss is a big deal. They also run sometimes 24/7, my system is rarely off.

Coolant losses in cars I'd have thought would be dominated by other factors.

 

[Dave2150]

You seem to have lost the plot. A CLC is made up of much than just rubber. You will see that it has joints in the metal construction, joints between the hoses and radiators, joints between the rubber hoses and block assembly etc.

You seem to be under the false notion that after years of the water being continually heated and cooled that non of the H20 molecules will find a way out through the many joints etc.

What you will find is people like @Acme who had a CLC for ~5+ years tell you that the performance of their particular CLC got less because the amount of liquid inside was not the same volume as when it was brand new. This is a simple fact; you can choose to believe it or not.

I personally know of 5 original H100i's from 2011 that eventually dropped in performance considerably due to the lack of liquid that was inside. It is one of the reasons that my AIO has a fill port on the side. I like to top it up every 12 months or so.

100% Agree, AIO's absolutely see evaporation over the years. Some of the better brands (Be Quiet for example) offer fill ports on their AIO's for longevity. The pump becomes much louder once there's some air in the system.

 

[Ross Thomson]

Wrong, I have stated that rubber is frequently used in water containing environment - gaskets, seals and tubings. As well as waterproofing materials, joint sealant etc etc.

these applications would preclude the use of rubber if it permits water to magically “permeates” through it.

the burden of proof isn’t on me either. Someone made a fantastic claim yet without any solid science or reality. Only thing so far is an angry yankie talking about stuff he knows very little about. And you expect people to believe that is the truth?! Seriously, you might as well join the flat earth society while you are at it and be with your kins.

you haven't provided any peer reviewed articles to say the tubes in AIO's don't allow permeation. You made a claim and didn't back it up with any scientific rigour. You're actually more at fault here because we have seen the evidence of loss of fluid from AIO's from various sources online.

 

[Participant]

You seem to have lost the plot. A CLC is made up of much than just rubber. You will see that it has joints in the metal construction, joints between the hoses and radiators, joints between the rubber hoses and block assembly etc.

You seem to be under the false notion that after years of the water being continually heated and cooled that non of the H20 molecules will find a way out through the many joints etc.

What you will find is people like @Acme who had a CLC for ~5+ years tell you that the performance of their particular CLC got less because the amount of liquid inside was not the same volume as when it was brand new. This is a simple fact; you can choose to believe it or not.

I personally know of 5 original H100i's from 2011 that eventually dropped in performance considerably due to the lack of liquid that was inside. It is one of the reasons that my AIO has a fill port on the side. I like to top it up every 12 months or so.

Straw man. The discussion was around rubber permeation, not joint permeation or other loss mechanisms.

100% Agree, AIO's absolutely see evaporation over the years. Some of the better brands (Be Quiet for example) offer fill ports on their AIO's for longevity. The pump becomes much louder once there's some air in the system.

Straw man. The discussion was around permeation of rubber by water, not evaporation losses through imperfect connections.

you haven't provided any peer reviewed articles to say the tubes in AIO's don't allow permeation. You made a claim and didn't back it up with any scientific rigour. You're actually more at fault here because we have seen the evidence of loss of fluid from AIO's from various sources online.

Straw man. Fluid loss in general was not being discussed, the permeation of rubber by water was.

Regards scientific rigour, I've seen more of that from pc-guy than the person making the original claim, yet you're not calling them out?

I've no particular affinity for pc-guy, but some of you have some fairly profound basic reading comprehension limitations.

 

[pc-guy]

You seem to have lost the plot. A CLC is made up of much than just rubber. You will see that it has joints in the metal construction, joints between the hoses and radiators, joints between the rubber hoses and block assembly etc.

You seem to be under the false notion that after years of the water being continually heated and cooled that non of the H20 molecules will find a way out through the many joints etc.

Please go back and re-read my first post in this thread. I said specifically that water can be lost through the joints. But the notion of water permeate through rubber is non-sense.

there will be water loss in a closed system but it is not through water permeates through rubber tubing.

joints will allow some form of atmospheric loss of water no doubt about it.

please understand the original claim before banging one off.

 

[Cyber-Mav]

Those who replace an AIO usually replace the entire computer since it leaked all over everything and bust it.

 

[Grim5]

Those who replace an AIO usually replace the entire computer since it leaked all over everything and bust it.

Small leaks, which most water leaks are won't damage anything.

 

[MartinPrince]

I've no particular affinity for pc-guy, but some of you have some fairly profound basic reading comprehension limitations.

The topic of the thread is "Do you ever replace your aio?" so any discussion on that qualifies.
pc-guy's first response questioned that fluid would even dry out, not just the means of it drying out.

why would the fluid permeat through the rubber or fluid dry out?

he uses the word 'or' not 'and' which means he questions the fact of the fluid drying out at all.

My first reply was to Grim5, who did not mention the means of drying out, just that CLC's don't loose fluid and the only reason to change them is pump failure.

I replaced my last one only cause I wanted a new one that has a lcd screen on the pump

I've heard of people keeping them for 10 years, the only thing that would force you to upgrade is if the pump dies and quite a few AIOs now come with 5 year warranties

This is just false and a misconception and it was this I was directly replying to.

pc-guy then replies to me.

Do not use Steve Burke as your foundation of knowledge and truth! The man talks extreme poo!

In no way does he provide any kind of proof, either anecdotal or empirical, and just resorts to argumentum ad hominem to try to make his point.

So the major point is whether CLC's loose fluid at all and the minor point is whether water can permeate rubber (one of the means by which the fluid might escape). Even if you don't want to accept that water can permeate rubber then you still have to accept that CLC's can loose fluid maybe by more than just rubber permeability.

On the minor point of rubber permeability it is quite simple to show that is a thing.
https://www.applerubber.com/hot-topics-for-engineers/the-permeability-of-rubber-compounds/
or here
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/037851739290122I?via=ihub

One can still believe that CLC's don't loose fluid or that water never permeates rubber. After all, there are people that still contend the earth is flat.

 

[Cyber-Mav]

Any leak is a risk. Liquid plus electronics not a good idea unless can plumb it outside the case or better yet outside the house

 

[DazQ87]

i had a really old first gen corsair 240mm AIO on my 5820k for 5.5 years running an overclock, I think I changed the paste once in that time. I upgraded to my current system when the AIO pump died after all that time, it still had liquid in but the pump just gave out, I didn't bother investigating it any more than that and chucked it in the bin, although in hindsight I wish i had kept it to at least reuse the radiator for something.

It hasn't put me off AIOs and I now have a H100i RGB platinum on my current system, if it lasts another 5-6 years it will time nicely for a CPU and motherboard upgrade anyway.

 

[Ross Thomson]

Straw man. Fluid loss in general was not being discussed, the permeation of rubber by water was.

Regards scientific rigour, I've seen more of that from pc-guy than the person making the original claim, yet you're not calling them out?

I've no particular affinity for pc-guy, but some of you have some fairly profound basic reading comprehension limitations.

There is none from pc-guy. my issue with it is that he calls for peer reviewed papers but provides none for his claims. There are plenty of papers out there that discuss permeation from rubber tubes.

Here is one from 1926 for god sake

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50195a002

 

[pc-guy]

• The topic of the thread is "Do you ever replace your aio?" so any discussion on that qualifies.
  pc-guy's first response questioned that fluid would even dry out, not just the means of it drying out.
  he uses the word 'or' not 'and' which means he questions the fact of the fluid drying out at all.
  
  My first reply was to Grim5, who did not mention the means of drying out, just that CLC's don't loose fluid and the only reason to change them is pump failure.
  This is just false and a misconception and it was this I was directly replying to.
  
  pc-guy then replies to me.
  In no way does he provide any kind of proof, either anecdotal or empirical, and just resorts to argumentum ad hominem to try to make his point.
  
  So the major point is whether CLC's loose fluid at all and the minor point is whether water can permeate rubber (one of the means by which the fluid might escape). Even if you don't want to accept that water can permeate rubber then you still have to accept that CLC's can loose fluid maybe by more than just rubber permeability.
  
  On the minor point of rubber permeability it is quite simple to show that is a thing.
  https://www.applerubber.com/hot-topics-for-engineers/the-permeability-of-rubber-compounds/
  or here
  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/037851739290122I?via=ihub
  
  One can still believe that CLC's don't loose fluid or that water never permeates rubber. After all, there are people that still contend the earth is flat.

  Not being funny but I read that abstract as well. My understanding of it in summary clearly differs from yours and I quote the text
  “On the basis of the experimental results, it is possible to evaluate the water protection capacity of rubber closures. Quantitative permeation through the rubbers is, however, highly unpredictable because of the concentration dependency of the diffusion coefficient.”
  
  that is basically saying the experimental result is not reliable to me. Also if rubber permeation is a thing there will be much much more study of it and citations on internet than just 2 abstracts.
  
  

 

[james.miller]

https://blog.nzxt.com/does-aio-liquid-evaporate/

NZXT must have some bad engineers for them to allow this article.

Hehe!

Straw man. Fluid loss in general was not being discussed, the permeation of rubber by water was.

sure it was

why would the fluid permeat through the rubber or fluid dry out? never heard of this and there is no science behind it. water molecules are not small enough to permeat through rubber at molecular level. certainly the chemicals they put into the water don't react with rubber either. if eveything is air sealed then there is no reason for liquid level to dry out. inside the tube is effectively pressurised so even the likes CO2 which CAN permeat through rubber cannot get through due to pressure.

 

[pc-guy]

Hehe!



sure it was

Sorry to burst your bubble here! I quote NZXT text

“The coolant inside of a liquid cooler is a mixture of propylene glycol and distilled water”

What did I say before “rubber doesn’t allow water to permeate especially distilled water.” I also mentioned rubber is not good against oil or organic liquid. Do you have any idea what propylene glycol is? It is a hydro carbon molecule that can dissolve in water. I don’t know the exact reason for adding this to water but I would guess it is to stabilise water and minimise the availability of water vapour forming within the system which is clearly detrimental and can cause significant problems. And also to improve viscosity of the overall solution and its latent heat capacity.

with that said glycol is readily permeable through natural rubber so I would guess the rubber they have used has been engineered to be more impervious to glycol and that fact that it is a solution of water and glycol would further reduce the rate of permeation.

anyway don’t take any elephants leg and call it an elephant please.

edit: for me, all I used to use was distilled water in my water cooling loops back 6yrs ago. Never needed to have additives so I was no aware of the chemistry of the modern AIO. So to that effect Steve Burke’s video about “extreme permeation” can hold truth if the solution inside the AIO has any alcohol or oily content. However I strongly rebuke the idea that water can permeate through rubber. It is nonsense.

 

[MartinPrince]

that is basically saying the experimental result is not reliable to me. Also if rubber permeation is a thing there will be much much more study of it and citations on internet than just 2 abstracts.

You can keep sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "la la la" to yourself. Nothing will convince people like you, not even 10 abstracts etc.
The summary you quoted states "it is highly unpredictable" for you to come away with the conclusion that it never happens and is an impossibility then it would need to have stated as such. The unpredictability refers to the rate at which it occurs. It is a fact that it does occur, it is just hard to predict at what rate.

You can squirm or continue moving the goal posts all you want, people like you seem to rarely admit when they get something wrong. (a piece is even on the NZXT web site for goodness sake)

When you say that people with more subject knowledge or experience than you or I "are talking extreme poo!" without a counter point or proof then most people will probably realise the only person talking extreme poo, is you.

if eveything is air sealed then there is no reason for liquid level to dry out.

 

[james.miller]

Sorry to burst your bubble here! I quote NZXT text

“The coolant inside of a liquid cooler is a mixture of propylene glycol and distilled water”

What did I say before “rubber doesn’t allow water to permeate especially distilled water.” I also mentioned rubber is not good against oil or organic liquid. Do you have any idea what propylene glycol is? It is a hydro carbon molecule that can dissolve in water. I don’t know the exact reason for adding this to water but I would guess it is to stabilise water and minimise the availability of water vapour forming within the system which is clearly detrimental and can cause significant problems. And also to improve viscosity of the overall solution and its latent heat capacity.

with that said glycol is readily permeable through natural rubber so I would guess the rubber they have used has been engineered to be more impervious to glycol and that fact that it is a solution of water and glycol would further reduce the rate of permeation.

anyway don’t take any elephants leg and call it an elephant please.

edit: for me, all I used to use was distilled water in my water cooling loops back 6yrs ago. Never needed to have additives so I was no aware of the chemistry of the modern AIO. So to that effect Steve Burke’s video about “extreme permeation” can hold truth if the solution inside the AIO has any alcohol or oily content. However I strongly rebuke the idea that water can permeate through rubber. It is nonsense.

also you:

if everything is air sealed then there is no reason for liquid level to dry out

consider the problem isnt just rubber permeability.

You've got a REAL chip on your shoulder.

 

[pc-guy]

also you:



consider the problem isnt just rubber permeability.

You've got a REAL chip on your shoulder.

What are you saying instead of quoting my post?

Are you suggesting that if a close looped system with everything air tight ie no gaps no leaks then liquid inside it will magically disappear? Lol. Seriously which dimension do you live in man. Have you got any brain cells left to even think before you type anymore.

 

[james.miller]

What are you saying instead of quoting my post?

Are you suggesting that if a close looped system with everything air tight then liquid inside it will magically disappear? Lol. Seriously which dimension do you live in man. Have you got any brain cells left to even think before you type anymore.

IF it's airtight you said. So what if it no longer is? use that brain and wind your neck in a bit. You're embarrassing yourself.

Also please give us your thoughts on NZXT posting that article, written by your arch enemy Steve, on their own website. Are you gonna boycott NZXT now?

 

[Mr G]

I recently upgraded the stock cooler on my daughters setup to a H115i and considered getting the X63 Kraken. For the price the temps are matching my air cooler, so reconsidering at this point.