Poll: Do you think AMD will be able to compete with Nvidia again during the next few years?

[LePhuronn]

AMD releasing something next year to compete with what Nvidia is offering this year would be incredibly short sighted.

Well Nvidia didn't release something this year that would compete with their 2 year old Pascal, did they.

It's almost as if people have forgotten than AMD have never had Nvidia's R&D budget and spent a very long time with zero money...

 

[twistedheat]

That survey would be heavily infulenced by mobile PC's.

Sure, but even if you were to assume that 60% of responders are laptop users and none of them use discrete graphics cards, and all of them are at 1080p or below that would still mean:

~33% of responders are on 1080p whilst only ~3.5% are on 1440p. That's still 10x larger. The point still stands that market hasn't even shifted to 1440p yet and is currently far from that, let alone talks of 4k or 8k

 

[jigger]

Sure, but even if you were to assume that 60% of responders are laptop users and none of them use discrete graphics cards, and all of them are at 1080p or below that would still mean:

~33% of responders are on 1080p whilst only ~3.5% are on 1440p. That's still 10x larger. The point still stands that market hasn't even shifted to 1440p yet and is currently far from that, let alone talks of 4k or 8k

People hold onto monitors for a long time and 60hz 1080p monitors will be filling steam surveys for years. Are you saying the gaming end of the desktop market should focus on 1080p performance?

 

[twistedheat]

People hold onto monitors for a long time and 60hz 1080p monitors will be filling steam surveys for years. Are you saying the gaming end of the desktop market should focus on 1080p performance?

Yes, because that's where the vast majority of gamers are. The vast majority of gamers purchase at the low and mid-end. 1440p won't be a thing until the lower end mid-range cards (1060s) are 1440p 60fps ultra in AAA games for a few generations. And 4k long long after that, given the current rate of graphic performance growth.

Let's take the 10-series to be a snapshot of where buyers exist in any given generation of card.

Of the steam survey, 41.89% of cards were 10-series cards. Of that 41.89%:

- 14.79% were 1060s (or 35% of all 10 series cards)
- 32.82% were 1060 or BELOW (or 78% of all 10 series cards)
- 4.27% were 1080/1080ti (or 10% of all 10 series cards)

 

[jigger]

Yes, because that's where the vast majority of gamers are. The vast majority of gamers purchase at the low and mid-end. 1440p won't be a thing until the lower end mid-range cards (1060s) are 1440p 60fps ultra in AAA games for a few generations. And 4k long long after that, given the current rate of graphic performance growth.

Let's take the 10-series to be a snapshot of where buyers exist in any given generation of card.

Of the steam survey, 41.89% of cards were 10-series cards. Of that 41.89%:

- 14.79% were 1060s (or 35% of all 10 series cards)
- 32.82% were 1060 or BELOW (or 78% of all 10 series cards)
- 4.27% were 1080/1080ti (or 10% of all 10 series cards)

Well what will Nvidia do to compete?

 

[twistedheat]

Well what will Nvidia do to compete?

?

Think you're continuing a conversation I'm not part of. I was just in here to comment on whoever it was saying that AMD need to worry about 4k/8k gaming as being wrong. They only realistically need to focus on low and mid-range, maybe upper mid-range. If they are kings of mid-range, they are doing fine.

 

[jigger]

?

Think you're continuing a conversation I'm not part of. I was just in here to comment on whoever it was saying that AMD need to worry about 4k/8k gaming as being wrong. They only realistically need to focus on low and mid-range, maybe upper mid-range. If they are kings of mid-range, they are doing fine.

AMD have the laptop market covered and APU's will be the dominant force of the 1080p desktop market. AMD are doing fine in the descrete market as they have the better products.

The market Nvidia needs to open up is the Uber high-end. They just don't seem to be able to pull ahead enough or compete with AMD's higher performing cards on price. Nvidia are in a no man's land. Too expensive or slow depending how you look at them.

 

[Gregster]

AMD have the laptop market covered and APU's will be the dominant force of the 1080p desktop market. AMD are doing fine in the descrete market as they have the better products.

The market Nvidia needs to open up is the Uber high-end. They just don't seem to be able to pull ahead enough or compete with AMD's higher performing cards on price. Nvidia are in a no man's land. Too expensive or slow depending how you look at them.

Hold on, spoffle will be pulling you up... Oh wait.... You are defending AMD

Joke before I get reported.

 

[twistedheat]

AMD have the laptop market covered and APU's will be the dominant force of the 1080p desktop market. AMD are doing fine in the descrete market as they have the better products.

The market Nvidia needs to open up is the Uber high-end. They just don't seem to be able to pull ahead enough or compete with AMD's higher performing cards on price. Nvidia are in a no man's land. Too expensive or slow depending how you look at them.

Unfortunately being in our echo chamber of "knowing" that AMD have the better product, means little. Nvidia have the mind share and your casual or uninformed gamer will buy Nvidia no matter what it seems, unless the difference in price or performance is so significant that they are being screamed at from all angles to buy an AMD card - like for example with Ryzen.

As long as Nvidia and AMD are within the same ballpark of price and performance at the mid-range, and someone can tell someone else "yeah just buy a RX580 or GTX 1060 they're basically the same" it seems like your casual gamer will go for the Nvidia product. AMD need their Ryzen version of the GPU to really put the cat amongst the pigeons.

 

[muziqaz]

AMD have the laptop market covered and APU's will be the dominant force of the 1080p desktop market. AMD are doing fine in the descrete market as they have the better products.

The market Nvidia needs to open up is the Uber high-end. They just don't seem to be able to pull ahead enough or compete with AMD's higher performing cards on price. Nvidia are in a no man's land. Too expensive or slow depending how you look at them.

I don't know what alternative universe you are part of, but nVidia is making money left and right with all of their cards, be it cheapest ones or the crazy expensive 2080Tis, while AMD is scrapping rock bottom of profit margins with their high end cards due to complex and expensive HBM technology, to top that their top dog in GPU market is like 4th or 5th fastest product on that same market. I have never seen such a huge performance gap between them two ever since forever. AMD does have APUs in their product stack, but those are not selling great and Intel is still are dominating with preferred choice for GPU being nvidias mobile chips.
And AMD top end cards never favoured 1080p resolutions they were stretching their legs at 1440p and 4k, while still falling behind nvidias cards.
Whichever way you look at it, whatever nVidia prices their cards at, people are still buying them regardless, same seems to be the truth about Intel's cpus where you have quite a few people still paying extra money for a little bit or none performance increase over much cheaper Ryzen CPUs.

If you look at AMDs financials if it wasn't for mining boom, AMD would be in the deep red with GPU department. I think last quarter CPU department sales masked poor GPU sales numbers. AMD GPU department is struggling big time to make a buck at the moment and to bring in a decent profit. Hopefully they will bring Zen like cat in GPU space in couple of years and pull nVidia back to the ground, until then, AMD needs to scrape by while nvidia is doing great

 

[muziqaz]

Unfortunately being in our echo chamber of "knowing" that AMD have the better product, means little. Nvidia have the mind share and your casual or uninformed gamer will buy Nvidia no matter what it seems, unless the difference in price or performance is so significant that they are being screamed at from all angles to buy an AMD card - like for example with Ryzen.

As long as Nvidia and AMD are within the same ballpark of price and performance at the mid-range, and someone can tell someone else "yeah just buy a RX580 or GTX 1060 they're basically the same" it seems like your casual gamer will go for the Nvidia product. AMD need their Ryzen version of the GPU to really put the cat amongst the pigeons.

hey, I started writing about the cat first

 

[twistedheat]

hey, I started writing about the cat first

Haha sorry pal, I was just that bit more efficient

 

[jigger]

I don't know what alternative universe you are part of, but nVidia is making money left and right with all of their cards, be it cheapest ones or the crazy expensive 2080Tis, while AMD is scrapping rock bottom of profit margins with their high end cards due to complex and expensive HBM technology, to top that their top dog in GPU market is like 4th or 5th fastest product on that same market. I have never seen such a huge performance gap between them two ever since forever. AMD does have APUs in their product stack, but those are not selling great and Intel is still are dominating with preferred choice for GPU being nvidias mobile chips.
And AMD top end cards never favoured 1080p resolutions they were stretching their legs at 1440p and 4k, while still falling behind nvidias cards.
Whichever way you look at it, whatever nVidia prices their cards at, people are still buying them regardless, same seems to be the truth about Intel's cpus where you have quite a few people still paying extra money for a little bit or none performance increase over much cheaper Ryzen CPUs.

If you look at AMDs financials if it wasn't for mining boom, AMD would be in the deep red with GPU department. I think last quarter CPU department sales masked poor GPU sales numbers. AMD GPU department is struggling big time to make a buck at the moment and to bring in a decent profit. Hopefully they will bring Zen like cat in GPU space in couple of years and pull nVidia back to the ground, until then, AMD needs to scrape by while nvidia is doing great

Not at all. The desktp graphics market is tiny compared to just the CPU market and AMD desktop cards are some of the best available.

Edit: Nvidia are losing share price. They have been overvalued and still are.

 

[jigger]

Unfortunately being in our echo chamber of "knowing" that AMD have the better product, means little. Nvidia have the mind share and your casual or uninformed gamer will buy Nvidia no matter what it seems, unless the difference in price or performance is so significant that they are being screamed at from all angles to buy an AMD card - like for example with Ryzen.

As long as Nvidia and AMD are within the same ballpark of price and performance at the mid-range, and someone can tell someone else "yeah just buy a RX580 or GTX 1060 they're basically the same" it seems like your casual gamer will go for the Nvidia product. AMD need their Ryzen version of the GPU to really put the cat amongst the pigeons.

If that is the case then AMD already have a good strategy.

 

[4K8KW10]

I don't know what alternative universe you are part of, but nVidia is making money left and right with all of their cards, be it cheapest ones or the crazy expensive 2080Tis, while AMD is scrapping rock bottom of profit margins with their high end cards due to complex and expensive HBM technology, to top that their top dog in GPU market is like 4th or 5th fastest product on that same market. I have never seen such a huge performance gap between them two ever since forever. AMD does have APUs in their product stack, but those are not selling great and Intel is still are dominating with preferred choice for GPU being nvidias mobile chips.
And AMD top end cards never favoured 1080p resolutions they were stretching their legs at 1440p and 4k, while still falling behind nvidias cards.
Whichever way you look at it, whatever nVidia prices their cards at, people are still buying them regardless, same seems to be the truth about Intel's cpus where you have quite a few people still paying extra money for a little bit or none performance increase over much cheaper Ryzen CPUs.

If you look at AMDs financials if it wasn't for mining boom, AMD would be in the deep red with GPU department. I think last quarter CPU department sales masked poor GPU sales numbers. AMD GPU department is struggling big time to make a buck at the moment and to bring in a decent profit. Hopefully they will bring Zen like cat in GPU space in couple of years and pull nVidia back to the ground, until then, AMD needs to scrape by while nvidia is doing great

I mostly agree with your post. Except that the problem is not in HBM.
The problem is that the stupid Vega 64 is extremely inefficient with its shaders. Too many transistors on its die which sit there and do nothing.

 

[muziqaz]

Not at all. The desktp graphics market is tiny compared to just the CPU market and AMD desktop cards are some of the best available.

Edit: Nvidia are losing share price. They have been overvalued and still are.

We are not discussing here how world is wrong and unfair. A lot of companies are over valued (MS, Apple, among many others), that has nothing to do with what they produce and and what product they sell. Share trading stuff is being run by mindless drugged down buffoons who have no clue about what the companies they trade shares of are selling and every of their calculations end up divided by zero to make things entertaining, that is after they consult the weatherman if its gonna rain tomorrow.
We are talking about the fact that whatever nvidia is making and whatever they are pricing right now they are selling, and have no problems moving their product to the end user (that is if we ignore their greediness and small ef up with overstocking for crashed mining market). Same goes with Intel. With all the security issues, all the woopin AMD is doing to them, they are capacity constraint, can you believe it? I can't. They are selling everything they are making and market is demanding more, instead of turning around and saying, hey there is an alternative which is as fast or faster, yet cheaper and has no security issues.

We (well most of us, who actually look into technology) know that AMD cards have amazing technology, their CPUs are well designed and forward looking, but in this day and age, that is not what sells the product. If it did, Intel would be bankrupt long time ago, and nVidia would be scraping 10% of the GPU market.

 

[jigger]

We are not discussing here how world is wrong and unfair. A lot of companies are over valued (MS, Apple, among many others), that has nothing to do with what they produce and and what product they sell. Share trading stuff is being run by mindless drugged down buffoons who have no clue about what the companies they trade shares of are selling and every of their calculations end up divided by zero to make things entertaining, that is after they consult the weatherman if its gonna rain tomorrow.
We are talking about the fact that whatever nvidia is making and whatever they are pricing right now they are selling, and have no problems moving their product to the end user (that is if we ignore their greediness and small ef up with overstocking for crashed mining market). Same goes with Intel. With all the security issues, all the woopin AMD is doing to them, they are capacity constraint, can you believe it? I can't. They are selling everything they are making and market is demanding more, instead of turning around and saying, hey there is an alternative which is as fast or faster, yet cheaper and has no security issues.

We (well most of us, who actually look into technology) know that AMD cards have amazing technology, their CPUs are well designed and forward looking, but in this day and age, that is not what sells the product. If it did, Intel would be bankrupt long time ago, and nVidia would be scraping 10% of the GPU market.

Nvidia are having problems. Something like 130,000 cards have been returned. What I'm saying is IF its true AMD can't out sell Nvidia then why take the chance of pushing the graphics arm of the firm into a market that Nvidia are already struggling in with all its mind share. Whatever that is.

 

[FoxEye]

July is Q3

So it is... when did this happen?

 

[Kaapstad]

Nvidia are having problems. Something like 130,000 cards have been returned. What I'm saying is IF its true AMD can't out sell Nvidia then why take the chance of pushing the graphics arm of the firm into a market that Nvidia are already struggling in with all its mind share. Whatever that is.

Where is your source for the number above?

 

[FoxEye]

If Navi isn't due until 2019 I don't want it to compete with current cards. I would like to see AMD release something that either competes with the top end of Nvidias next release or outright beats it.

AMD releasing something next year to compete with what Nvidia is offering this year would be incredibly short sighted.

AMD physically can't compete right now with an aging GCN architecture.

Imagine Bulldozer vs Core. We can hope that they have a new architecture coming through like Zen - eventually - did. But look how many years AMD were left flogging a dead horse (Bulldozer) before Zen arrived.

Same deal now on the graphics side. GCN is done but it's all they have right now. This is also why Navi is only going to be mid-range, there's a limit to what you can do without making radical changes, and those take years.

Latest info I read is that they're going back to the architecture/design philosophy before GCN and improving that.