Does something need to be done about illegal/unlicenced/uninsured electric vehicles on our roads (and pavements)
- Thread starter silvagti
- Start date
Associate
If the DVSA had a service to check and approve converted e-bikes it would probably be so expensive that it would be cheaper to buy a new e-bike!
Yes, it's about time they updated the laws so that people can use Bafang/Tongsheng etc 250w conversion kits legally. The new e-bikes I've seen advertised online are a complete rip-off. The cheapest ones are obsolete 1, 3 and 5-speed touring bikes with front/rear hub motors (with low capacity batteries) which still cost £900 - £1,500. Really weak poor quality bikes for that sort of money which no one would consider buying for commuting if they weren't motorised.
Here is a recent picture from a Cyclotricity group of a Stealth bike, the one I had in 2010, that was a piece of junk but they have a license to put parts on it.
the bloke broke his arm.
Yes, that must be a piece of junk for the handlebars to shear off like that during normal use. It's amazing what you can get away with if you have a license from the authorities.
There's certainly a market for buying good well made secondhand bikes from Gumtree etc, converting them into e-bikes using a reliable legal 250w conversion kit and then selling them on to cyclists. Even if they were sold on for half the price of a new equivalent e-bike there would still be a profit margin. The e-bike manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank and the inflexible legislation that the government enforces is allowing them to get away with it.
... or people will just continue to convert their own and not worry unduly about it. The Police would have a really hard time explaining how a self-installed Bafang or Tongsheng was "illegal", if they meet all the criteria in the legislation. 250W sustained power - yes. 15.5mph max speed for motor assist - yes. Throttle control - no. Must be pedalling for the motor to assist - yes.
So, excuse me officer, what's the problem? Can you point to the Act and Section that specifically prohibits self-installed motors, that in all other ways comply with the law? Next they might as well make servicing your own car illegal. Which they don't. And cars are lot more complicated.
I'd love to know if anyone has or knows anyone that has been stopped with a conversion kit that's in spec (as above) and still had their bike confiscated. It doesn't seem likely.
OTOH, a few times now the various police forces have put things on social media about eBikes that aren't even true. Which I guess is not unheard of. They make mistakes.
As for conversion kits in general, Chester police have it completely wrong.
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www.raleigh.co.uk
So, excuse me officer, what's the problem? Can you point to the Act and Section that specifically prohibits self-installed motors, that in all other ways comply with the law? Next they might as well make servicing your own car illegal. Which they don't. And cars are lot more complicated.
I'd love to know if anyone has or knows anyone that has been stopped with a conversion kit that's in spec (as above) and still had their bike confiscated. It doesn't seem likely.
OTOH, a few times now the various police forces have put things on social media about eBikes that aren't even true. Which I guess is not unheard of. They make mistakes.
As for conversion kits in general, Chester police have it completely wrong.
Electric Bike Laws | Ebike UK Laws | Raleigh UK
The main legal requirement you need to be aware of when buying an electric bike is that you must be aged 14 or over. Discover more electric bike laws.
Obviously they want to sell you a ready-made e-bike, but they do state that conversion kits are legal if within spec. As you'd expect.
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Man of Honour
Both my Treks were from Gumtree and also helped many others choose from Gumtree and Marketplace.
That's good to hear, obviously things have changed since 2010 and I can stop looking over my back.
A bad accident I had in 2016 the Police were only bothered that my motor was 250 watt.
I moved on from electric skatboards to electric scooter and now ebike. The first 2 never really had any legal status but as usual new tech means less police enforcement. After a while some young dumb person got killed in accident and police start to raise public awareness and start to enforce the law, same as ebike but at least there is a legal framework for Road legal pedal assisted bike.
I got the Hitway BK6 and BK3s which both marketed as road legal in the UK and both cost less than £800 on Amazon. I am 95 kg and both will happily shift my weight to 15mph with me just free wheeling it, all it takes is the sensor to sense half a turn of the pedal and the motor kicks in..... I managed 25 miles of range with max motor assist etc.
Back to the topic of this thread, "
It is an unfair world we live in and if you want more relax rules on Road legal then petitions your MPs and get the law changed......
Now where is that de limited top speed option on my BK6
I got the Hitway BK6 and BK3s which both marketed as road legal in the UK and both cost less than £800 on Amazon. I am 95 kg and both will happily shift my weight to 15mph with me just free wheeling it, all it takes is the sensor to sense half a turn of the pedal and the motor kicks in..... I managed 25 miles of range with max motor assist etc.
Back to the topic of this thread, "
Does something need to be done about illegal/unlicenced/uninsured electric vehicles on our roads (and pavements)"
Yes, I think police should start to enforce checking and stopping unlicensed electrical vehicles. If unsure of make or modification then like any motorized vehicle take it off the road for testing. People argue that normal bike go faster than 15mph, of course bike can go faster, my BK6 can go 30mph down hill and that is not against the law (within the speed limit of the zone of course). What is against the law is the type of the vehicles as clear guidance on what is road legal.It is an unfair world we live in and if you want more relax rules on Road legal then petitions your MPs and get the law changed......
Now where is that de limited top speed option on my BK6
Man of Honour
Now where is that de limited top speed option on my BK6
It's not going to happen, you're already 36v on a 250 watt motor, if there was a possibility to get into the settings on the computer to change them it would still not be advisable because any small change can destroy the motor/controller.
A bloke I know changed the settings to go up to 20mph and his motor ended up failing.
Mid drive motors like Bafang sell 360v 250 watt motors but they are able to go much faster without damage by applying a device to them (forgot the name of them).
There used to be a magnet trick but most people buy these devices.
Personally I think the Govt giving us a 15.5 mph motorised bike rules with no tax, insurance or MOT to ride on the roads is enough, if I want to go faster with a motor then I should be paying like a petrol scooter owner does.
You ought to view the Derestricted eBike group on Facebook, it annoys me.
You are right about messing with the electronic and get shorten life but like many CPUs there is a chance that you got the right chip and it does perform beyond the 250w. The speed limit is electronic and not for the protection of the electronic or motor but to make it road legal, I know exactly which function it is and will test it in the woods or private land of course 25 mph is the max settings for the BK6 uk version.
I know a bloke who has no idea what he is doing and bricked the controller because the hidden menu also change setting for the controller and he did not even note down the default settings....
25 mph is the max settings for the BK6 uk version. I know a bloke who has no idea what he is doing and bricked the controller because the hidden menu also change setting for the controller and he did not even note down the default settings....
Ebikes don't seem to be a huge issue yet (except for randomly exploding and burning houses down). But I've seen so many near missed caused by people on scooters, including basic dumb stuff like just suddenly darting out across the road without looking.
Also if you clip anything with the front wheel like a curb, pothole, big stone, maybe a bottle, you will face plant the floor immediately and need new teeth.
Also if you clip anything with the front wheel like a curb, pothole, big stone, maybe a bottle, you will face plant the floor immediately and need new teeth.
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lol been there with pot holes.....ouch
Now that london train , tube and bus all ban scooter there will be less of people using it as a last mile commute kind of thing. There are lots of rental scooters where tourist do crazy stuff on it like carrying 2 big people on one :0
Man of Honour
That's not bad then if it is a known speed for that motor, I know the motors I use don't go much beyond 15.5mph.
Like I say the Bafang mid-drives are known for being able to go a lot faster with no issues, not sure about their front motors though.
Disclaimer: I might be talking out of my bottom.
I've been thinking about this a bit more.
From what I've read, the Bafang and Tongsheng motors are all the same, with the exception that the 36V and 48V variants are geared differently.
But the 250W, 500W, 750W and 1000W motors are the same.
What determines the motor's output is twofold:
* The battery management system of your battery. This determines the maximum current that the battery will output before shutting down for safety.
* The LCD controller, which determines how much current the motor is given (assuming the battery can/will provide it). The controller governs all aspects of the motor's behaviour.
Chester police may be saying that the Bafang/Tongsheng kits aren't compliant, because there is no restriction in the motor itself. The restriction comes from the LCD controller, and this is software (and can be overridden).
I am not sure if e-bikes (not converted) have actual circuitry in the motors themselves to limit their output? Perhaps this is the key distinction.
So that then begs the question: Why does it matter if the motor is restricted by software or by hardware, if it is restricted within the law?
I've been thinking about this a bit more.
From what I've read, the Bafang and Tongsheng motors are all the same, with the exception that the 36V and 48V variants are geared differently.
But the 250W, 500W, 750W and 1000W motors are the same.
What determines the motor's output is twofold:
* The battery management system of your battery. This determines the maximum current that the battery will output before shutting down for safety.
* The LCD controller, which determines how much current the motor is given (assuming the battery can/will provide it). The controller governs all aspects of the motor's behaviour.
Chester police may be saying that the Bafang/Tongsheng kits aren't compliant, because there is no restriction in the motor itself. The restriction comes from the LCD controller, and this is software (and can be overridden).
I am not sure if e-bikes (not converted) have actual circuitry in the motors themselves to limit their output? Perhaps this is the key distinction.
So that then begs the question: Why does it matter if the motor is restricted by software or by hardware, if it is restricted within the law?
Man of Honour
This is the best site to ask eBike questions, for many years they have had some proper experts on there - https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/
We also have a forum member who I would put in that 'expert' mode and he posts on there, or did do.
I'll add his name if I find it.
@amigafan for some reason he's been permabanned.
He was the most knowledgeable person on here about eBikes.
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Man of Honour
thanks for the pointer, registered and will lurk around for info
They have helped me loads of times.
This is part of the thread about if conversions are illegal -
Technically all kit created e-bikes are illegal because every motorised vehicle on the roads has to have a specific approval. The only specific approval for pedelecs is solely for manufactured e-bikes.
However, it's nothing to worry about. Use this link and then scroll right down to the Kit Motors subject.
Pedelec Law - The Details
I think many of you will be aware of what a complex subject electric assist bicycle law is and pitfalls in trying to second guess it. As a result, and with my knowledge of it since joining the trade 70 years ago, I'm often called upon in here to give answers on the subject. But of course I...
www.pedelecs.co.uk
Afterwards see also this link for further clarification.
Pedelec Law - The Details
I think many of you will be aware of what a complex subject electric assist bicycle law is and pitfalls in trying to second guess it. As a result, and with my knowledge of it since joining the trade 70 years ago, I'm often called upon in here to give answers on the subject. But of course I...
www.pedelecs.co.uk
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I had a kid on an electric 'stand on' scooter keeping up with me from a set of traffic lights, up to 55mph (single carriageway), wearing just a hoodie (no helmet).
Quite a shock seeing them in the rear view mirror, almost touching my rear bumper at that speed. They went around a large motorway island, through red lights, and disappeared from view.
I didn't realise those type of scooters could go so quick.
Quite a shock seeing them in the rear view mirror, almost touching my rear bumper at that speed. They went around a large motorway island, through red lights, and disappeared from view.
I didn't realise those type of scooters could go so quick.
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Man of Honour
Early last year a bloke stopped me down by the Stoke City ground and asked about my eBike.
He pointed to his eScooter and said "Type the name and model into Google" and it was this - Rion 2RE70 Thrust
Look it up - 80mph.
He said the day before he was riding up the A50 flat out and nobody could catch him.
I said if you hit a small pothole you'd be dead and he just laughed.
They are a menace - I saw one of our vans coming back the other day and approaching the corner leading to the turning into our goods yard from the opposite direction (line of sight blocked by the high fences) was a youth on one flying up the wrong side of the road - all I could do from that distance was watch it unfold - fortunately was a miss but left our driver mildly shaken.
not sure why an e-bike is any more susceptible to pot hole damage than a regular bike, apart from a bit of extra weight
but like electric cars even if the motor will put out more power it's long term reliability may be compromised if you do that, along with the battery pack or power electronics,
seemed if you have to provide your weight/rider-strength to the Tongsheng and underestimate them you could get additional drive.
but like electric cars even if the motor will put out more power it's long term reliability may be compromised if you do that, along with the battery pack or power electronics,
seemed if you have to provide your weight/rider-strength to the Tongsheng and underestimate them you could get additional drive.
Man of Honour
If you are replying to me it was a lad on an eScooter riding at 70mph otherwise I don't know what you're on about.
In any case, a regular bike is pretty darn susceptible to pot holes! Hit one on a pushbike at any speed and you're going to have a bad day.
I crawl around the back lanes down here because it's practically suicidal to pick up speed, with the quality of the surfacing being what it is.
I crawl around the back lanes down here because it's practically suicidal to pick up speed, with the quality of the surfacing being what it is.