DON'T BUY MSI THEY MIS-SOLD TOP SPEC GT SERIES LAPTOPS with MXM Graphics
- Thread starter MiSJAH
- Start date
Makes you kinda mad that MSI just railroaded their customers into buying new instead of letting us just upgrade the graphics card/s like they advertised
Backpack, headset, mouse. Yes, I got one.
I was told i was going to get one but it never appeared and was never mentioned again. I was just glad to get the laptop after they couldn't find my payment :/ it was just a long drawn out process.
did you get the free game/s? for the gtx upgrade?
yes i know exactly what you mean I had a lot of problems for doing this deal... I'm glad its over the laptop is good though i really do like it, I do miss the option of the optical but have purchased and external replacement.
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Is there a way to contact this guy? I am seriously thinking of buying a MSI 1060 mxm 3.0b card for $600 US. if this really works. I have GT72 2QD dominator Motherboard MS-17811 SR1-PX I-7 4710hqQuick update.
MSI GT72-6QD with GTX 970M upgraded to GTX 1060. Stable.
New GPU from the GT72VR.
Not only stable, but stable enough to be overclocked!!
I didn't do this; this is the reasoning from the person that did.
@1GreyGhost1 , I've replied to your PM.
I wonder if the GT75VR will have upgradable gpu's? @Loki as the forum's MSI Representative you can let us know.
I wonder if the GT75VR will have upgradable gpu's? @Loki as the forum's MSI Representative you can let us know.
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Just discovering this news about the 2QE not being able to upgrade. Anyone in the EU or UK should be aware of the following.
Sales of goods act 1974
Distance selling regulations 2014 ( to be replaced after Brexit with a British act of the same ruling)
The term 'unfit for purpose'
Under both pieces of legislation, any product purchased which can be deemed unfit for purpose has to be replaced and/or refunded.
The product was priced and marketed with BOTH upgrades and replacement in mind, as is the nature of MXM technology and why someone would choose to pay a premium price tag as opposed to the same GPU and CPU in an integrated machine.
Example, I spent nearly 1500 on the GT72 2QE. I could have bought another integrated MSI laptop for just over 700 with the same GPU and CPU but no ability to upgrade or replace. Today, I could sell that for a few hundred and buy a similarly priced integrated machine for about the same price, minus what I sell the old one for. Doing a similar thing in terms of selling the 980M and buying a GTX10 card has already been mentioned in this thread.
The upgrade and trade in program is a personal company choice and policy but does not mean you have to do ANYTHING they want you to do within it. You are covered by the original fact that it was mis sold and is unfit for purpose. You could even go further to be honest given that the health and safety executive could argue that because the laptop can have the new card installed but it won't work, there is a potential risk of a fire hazard being produced as a consumer is not to know that installing a supposable compatible card into technology it is supposed to accept is actually incompatible.....
They could be forced under HSE to recall all laptops which fall into said category as a consequence. I am having my fridge freezer replaced with a brand new one after many years because of fire risk and design flaw. The same thing could be said in terms of having a card that needs more voltage....
In the UK, in this situation, your contract can be dealt with by the retailer. A retailer has more clout than you do because they may potentially stop selling a brand if it seems like a lot of trouble. It IS A LOT OF TROUBLE for a retailer to begin dealing with so many returns and invoke insurance etc.
And there is another good point. MSI insure themselves against this kind of risk!!! In other words they are likely already claiming to cover this situation but not passing it on.....
I have emailed support, spokem to my retailer whom in turn is speaking directly to MSI UK and I have called MSI UK today too. I didn't ask i TOLD them the situation, told them what I want (refund or replacement model that can be upgraded) I told them I am not interested in company policy or trade deals, I am only interested in :
A - The laws which cover sales of good within the UK
B - The outcome stipulated by said laws which is full refund or replacement with a newer and upgradable model
I also told them if they refuse they should write to me, stating that this decision is their FINAL one. And I wil lpass the matter straight over to the financial services ombudsman whom will act on my behalf and under legislation, take the refund that way. This way also costs MSI a lot of time, lawyers, intrusive audits, more money and very bad media coverage.
I suggest anyone still dealing with this, go for your guns and hold them to the account of the laws which protected your initial sale...
Sales of goods act 1974
Distance selling regulations 2014 ( to be replaced after Brexit with a British act of the same ruling)
The term 'unfit for purpose'
Under both pieces of legislation, any product purchased which can be deemed unfit for purpose has to be replaced and/or refunded.
The product was priced and marketed with BOTH upgrades and replacement in mind, as is the nature of MXM technology and why someone would choose to pay a premium price tag as opposed to the same GPU and CPU in an integrated machine.
Example, I spent nearly 1500 on the GT72 2QE. I could have bought another integrated MSI laptop for just over 700 with the same GPU and CPU but no ability to upgrade or replace. Today, I could sell that for a few hundred and buy a similarly priced integrated machine for about the same price, minus what I sell the old one for. Doing a similar thing in terms of selling the 980M and buying a GTX10 card has already been mentioned in this thread.
The upgrade and trade in program is a personal company choice and policy but does not mean you have to do ANYTHING they want you to do within it. You are covered by the original fact that it was mis sold and is unfit for purpose. You could even go further to be honest given that the health and safety executive could argue that because the laptop can have the new card installed but it won't work, there is a potential risk of a fire hazard being produced as a consumer is not to know that installing a supposable compatible card into technology it is supposed to accept is actually incompatible.....
They could be forced under HSE to recall all laptops which fall into said category as a consequence. I am having my fridge freezer replaced with a brand new one after many years because of fire risk and design flaw. The same thing could be said in terms of having a card that needs more voltage....
In the UK, in this situation, your contract can be dealt with by the retailer. A retailer has more clout than you do because they may potentially stop selling a brand if it seems like a lot of trouble. It IS A LOT OF TROUBLE for a retailer to begin dealing with so many returns and invoke insurance etc.
And there is another good point. MSI insure themselves against this kind of risk!!! In other words they are likely already claiming to cover this situation but not passing it on.....
I have emailed support, spokem to my retailer whom in turn is speaking directly to MSI UK and I have called MSI UK today too. I didn't ask i TOLD them the situation, told them what I want (refund or replacement model that can be upgraded) I told them I am not interested in company policy or trade deals, I am only interested in :
A - The laws which cover sales of good within the UK
B - The outcome stipulated by said laws which is full refund or replacement with a newer and upgradable model
I also told them if they refuse they should write to me, stating that this decision is their FINAL one. And I wil lpass the matter straight over to the financial services ombudsman whom will act on my behalf and under legislation, take the refund that way. This way also costs MSI a lot of time, lawyers, intrusive audits, more money and very bad media coverage.
I suggest anyone still dealing with this, go for your guns and hold them to the account of the laws which protected your initial sale...
@abstractrobbie thanks for your post.
Whom did you speak to on the phone at MSI? and what was their response?
Whom did you speak to on the phone at MSI? and what was their response?
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Sorry I said 1974, I mean 1979. It is also worth pointing out that you have 6 years under this law in which the retailer has to deal with this issue and refund. Far longer than any manufacturers guarantee so a much better approach with difficult manufacturers
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I rang UK MSI. Went through to support who passed me to sales. I gave them the info, serial numbers etc. They will get back to me but it is worth mentioning that they also said to call my retailer.
The retailer has its own contracts ect. with suppliers, manufacturers. I spoke to both just to see what happens and get the ball rolling but it is fair to say that the retailer will be the way it goes.
First, the 1979 act means as I said, they have to deal with and have to for six years after the sale date, so long as the problem is related to defect etc. Not things such as acceptable wear and tear, accidental damage etc.
MXM technology has two selling points. 1 it means you can replace tech like for like. 2 you can upgrade with the same tech just more powerful.
The fact that you cannot put in a new MXM card and use it, as confirmed by MSI, regadless of the fact that this is because they trusted a 3rd party, NVidia, who has let them down changes nothing.
One of said selling points is untrue. When it became apparent, be it at the time they were sold or later as in now is also academic. It means that at the time of sale, not known to you, the tech that should allow a function does not in fact allow that function.
Therefore the contract that was create through that sale is invalid. You were mis sold that product regardless of whose liability, MSI, retailer, Nvidia....
In a nutshell the tech is supposed to do two things for you. It doesn't matter if MSI told you. It doesn't even matter if MSI said they were not sure. The tech is from Nvidia and used by choice by MSI. What it should do it cannot in 'some' of their laptops. It is their problem.
The retailer has its own contracts ect. with suppliers, manufacturers. I spoke to both just to see what happens and get the ball rolling but it is fair to say that the retailer will be the way it goes.
First, the 1979 act means as I said, they have to deal with and have to for six years after the sale date, so long as the problem is related to defect etc. Not things such as acceptable wear and tear, accidental damage etc.
MXM technology has two selling points. 1 it means you can replace tech like for like. 2 you can upgrade with the same tech just more powerful.
The fact that you cannot put in a new MXM card and use it, as confirmed by MSI, regadless of the fact that this is because they trusted a 3rd party, NVidia, who has let them down changes nothing.
One of said selling points is untrue. When it became apparent, be it at the time they were sold or later as in now is also academic. It means that at the time of sale, not known to you, the tech that should allow a function does not in fact allow that function.
Therefore the contract that was create through that sale is invalid. You were mis sold that product regardless of whose liability, MSI, retailer, Nvidia....
In a nutshell the tech is supposed to do two things for you. It doesn't matter if MSI told you. It doesn't even matter if MSI said they were not sure. The tech is from Nvidia and used by choice by MSI. What it should do it cannot in 'some' of their laptops. It is their problem.
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Something MSI attempted to say was that they do not sell laptops with MXM tech to be 'upgraded' only 'replaced' This is also an attempt to fudge on the issue. I draw your attention to the definition of MXM tech from Wikipedia:
Easily upgrade. This quote would be considered by a court, should it get that far and by the financial services ombudsman.
It really doesn't matter whether that was part of your choice to buy at the time, or if you even knew it could be upgraded. The fact is that functionality is not available and has not been since the point of sale. Ugo, the contract of sale is invalid. Sales of goods act applies. That states you can have a full refund or replacement YOU are happy with. Not told you can have a discount, or a partial refund or given a lesser model without choice.
FULL REFUND / OR A REPLACEMENT WHICH YOU AGREE WITH ( in other words within the same price field or today's equivalent. )
Easily upgrade. This quote would be considered by a court, should it get that far and by the financial services ombudsman.
It really doesn't matter whether that was part of your choice to buy at the time, or if you even knew it could be upgraded. The fact is that functionality is not available and has not been since the point of sale. Ugo, the contract of sale is invalid. Sales of goods act applies. That states you can have a full refund or replacement YOU are happy with. Not told you can have a discount, or a partial refund or given a lesser model without choice.
FULL REFUND / OR A REPLACEMENT WHICH YOU AGREE WITH ( in other words within the same price field or today's equivalent. )
Errrr.....
P/N: 957-178111E-001 - GTX 980M Upgrade kit
P/N: 957-178111E-002 - GTX 970M Upgrade kit
MSI manufactured upgrade kits for the GT72 models and appropriate SKU's.
They cannot make the claim that MXM is not be upgraded when their own SKU's are called exactly that:
MSI Accessory 957-178111E-001 GT72 GTX980 MXM Card Upgrade Retail
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Yup, I jumped on that quickly with them too. As I said, they are being defensive and trying to fudge. All companies do as the know that a large enough number will believe what they are told as opposed to finding out themselves.
They do not have to tell you your rights, only respect them if you invoke them. Just as in a store who writes a note and puts it on display behind their counter stating, WE DO NOT GIVE REFUNDS.
Just because they put up a sign does not make it a rule. Many will abide by it and there is no law to stop them doing so either. But they do have to follow legislation if you argue and invoke it. That again means many who do not know their rights will just belly up and roll over, saving them money and time...
They do not have to tell you your rights, only respect them if you invoke them. Just as in a store who writes a note and puts it on display behind their counter stating, WE DO NOT GIVE REFUNDS.
Just because they put up a sign does not make it a rule. Many will abide by it and there is no law to stop them doing so either. But they do have to follow legislation if you argue and invoke it. That again means many who do not know their rights will just belly up and roll over, saving them money and time...
I wonder how the claim against MSI would go if a GT72 owner has not seen the brief message on the MSI UK Notebook facebook page about the lack of upgradability and they tried to upgrade as the machine was advertised and a fire or personal injury was caused, @Loki @natarie ?
@Loki What is MSI UK Notebook's legal obligation in informing customers that the upgrade is not possible and to stop the possibilities of the above occurring?
@Loki What is MSI UK Notebook's legal obligation in informing customers that the upgrade is not possible and to stop the possibilities of the above occurring?
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If a company has a product in the market which could cause a fire, they have to have an open recall policy. To set any limit could result in liability, should said product cause a fire, injury or damage. My fridge freezer was nearly 10 years old but because it was recall for potential fire risk, I got a whole new one as replacement. Remember, they are insured against such risks in the first place so they are not doing you favors or themselves not by refunding or replacement. They claim it back.
Sorry to hear you only just found out 
I'm sure there are many other customers unaware also that perhaps purchased the laptop to upgrade but haven't done so yet...
I'm still disgusted with this that they have broken advertising laws and dealt with this issue (product does not do what it states on the box). I'm even more shocked to find someone was able to overclock and run at stable temps with a new GPU 10x series... After several hours of phonecalls discussing with @natarie that the upgrade wasn't possible, she then quickly backtracked and said it won't be stable or good temps etc yet the guy above has done that very thing.... without a massive corporations R&D to help him.... yet your guys couldn't do it? or wouldn't?
I've threatened MSI with legal action but they basically told me to go for it see how far you get, presumably they had lawyers on standby and some cash in a reserve to fight each case as that's cheaper than recalling all or losing an issuing a statement / bad press etc. Pretty sad when there are laws on advertising and clearly it stated "MXM UPGRADEABLE" and that wasn't offered or possible, that is FALSE ADVERTISING and they basically told me, try it you will lose in court, or pay some money and get what you wanted in the first place...
Glad this thread is still going, @MiSJAH did you ever hear from their legal?
I paid the upgrade when I should have stuck to my guns just to get it over and done with, GT73 is more buggy than my old laptop, performance is nice but drivers are crap! I've updated and stuff but I still get occasional random freezes in game and 50% of the time when installing a new NVidia driver (even approved MSI one) it blackscreens and corrupts the install having to run tools to remove NVidia software completely then start again... they issued bios/firmware fixes but it still happens occasionally.
Definitely going for another brand on my next laptop purchase....
I'm sure there are many other customers unaware also that perhaps purchased the laptop to upgrade but haven't done so yet...I'm still disgusted with this that they have broken advertising laws and dealt with this issue (product does not do what it states on the box). I'm even more shocked to find someone was able to overclock and run at stable temps with a new GPU 10x series... After several hours of phonecalls discussing with @natarie that the upgrade wasn't possible, she then quickly backtracked and said it won't be stable or good temps etc yet the guy above has done that very thing.... without a massive corporations R&D to help him.... yet your guys couldn't do it? or wouldn't?
I've threatened MSI with legal action but they basically told me to go for it see how far you get, presumably they had lawyers on standby and some cash in a reserve to fight each case as that's cheaper than recalling all or losing an issuing a statement / bad press etc. Pretty sad when there are laws on advertising and clearly it stated "MXM UPGRADEABLE" and that wasn't offered or possible, that is FALSE ADVERTISING and they basically told me, try it you will lose in court, or pay some money and get what you wanted in the first place...
Glad this thread is still going, @MiSJAH did you ever hear from their legal?
I paid the upgrade when I should have stuck to my guns just to get it over and done with, GT73 is more buggy than my old laptop, performance is nice but drivers are crap! I've updated and stuff but I still get occasional random freezes in game and 50% of the time when installing a new NVidia driver (even approved MSI one) it blackscreens and corrupts the install having to run tools to remove NVidia software completely then start again... they issued bios/firmware fixes but it still happens occasionally.
Definitely going for another brand on my next laptop purchase....
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If there is one rule I have always lived by, it is to know consumer acts and laws where I live, not company policies.
Company policies can be anything, there are no laws to stop company policies but no way a company can stop someone acting on in place legislation. Ugo, you do not need to care about company policies when you are buying something.
BTW I keep talking about the sales of goods act 1979, anyone who bought after October 2015 I think it was then you are instead covered by the Consumer act 2015.
Thankfully, the sales of goods act states very specific things as your rights. For one, you can return the item to the retailer for a period of six years after the date on the receipt, if the product has a defect which is not through wear and tear etc.
You can if a product is 'not fit for a purpose it was sold'
You can for a great many things. I have been to a web archive. Pulled up the exact date of my purchase. Opened up the page advertising the GT72 and located the paragraph which claims MXM and the laptop is upgradable. I have taken the offical definition of MXM technology, which specifically states that MXM was developed to allow 'one to upgrade the GPU in a laptop'.
MSI, are doing what all big corporates do, edging their bets on as many people who will simply follow what they have been told. That is the problem today, too many people simply take what they are told and do nothing to explore if that is really the case, in everything to be honest but that is another story.
The simple fact is, the laptop was developed with a tech which was designed specifically to allow for upgrading.
The laptop was advertised as having the technology and being able to upgrade to the next MXM cards. The next MXM cards are the GTX10 series of cards, it is not as if we are complaining because the GTX20 is out and won't work. Besides that, they usually change the design of the socket when there is a leap so the new card or processor will not even fit on earlier tech.
The MXM 10 series cards are really only just becoming available to purchase individually, as opposed to pre installed in a new laptop and they have confirmed that this laptop will not be able to upgrade.
THE BUCK STOPS RIGHT THERE - QED
It is covered by mis-selling, defective and unfit for a purpose it was purchased
I made a ticket to see what MSI would say, not surprisingly they sent a generic response which didn't actually answer my questions or negotiate anything. It simply told me what I know, that it won't upgrade and that is because of the CPU. They also said I wasn't privy to the upgrade program in my country in the next sentence, which is a contradiction. If there is an upgrade program for my specific model but I am not privy to it, how can it not be possible to upgrade it????
This is now in the hands of the retailer who will have no choice but to refund under the sales of goods act. If they do not, I will make a chargeback via my debit card for the full amount. They will have to show evidence as to why I should not receive it while I show why I should. They will refer to consumer law and the facts. The facts and the law are in my favor and are indisputable.
The only thing that will change is the following.
1 - I WON'T buy MSI again and they loose a customer whose last 3 machines were MSI
2- The retailer looses the sale and on principle I buy elsewhere instead.
3- I still get a new computer.
Sounds fair to me, and all I have to do is wait. Doesn't really get much easier than that does it. While I wait though, seeing as I have the extra time not doing what I should be doing on a suitable computer can be utilized in more productive ways like ensuring each and every forum I find people talking about computers are made aware of this and everyone else's trouble with MSI, broken promises and failure to follow consumer laws.
With so many other choices and competitors around, who wants to buy a computer from a company who you learn quickly has a track record of poor service and poor technology???
ANyway, that is MSI's bad. I used to live in North China and I won't repeat what the Chinese say about MSI as it sounds like a ladies part, the joke goes hehehe.
Company policies can be anything, there are no laws to stop company policies but no way a company can stop someone acting on in place legislation. Ugo, you do not need to care about company policies when you are buying something.
BTW I keep talking about the sales of goods act 1979, anyone who bought after October 2015 I think it was then you are instead covered by the Consumer act 2015.
Thankfully, the sales of goods act states very specific things as your rights. For one, you can return the item to the retailer for a period of six years after the date on the receipt, if the product has a defect which is not through wear and tear etc.
You can if a product is 'not fit for a purpose it was sold'
You can for a great many things. I have been to a web archive. Pulled up the exact date of my purchase. Opened up the page advertising the GT72 and located the paragraph which claims MXM and the laptop is upgradable. I have taken the offical definition of MXM technology, which specifically states that MXM was developed to allow 'one to upgrade the GPU in a laptop'.
MSI, are doing what all big corporates do, edging their bets on as many people who will simply follow what they have been told. That is the problem today, too many people simply take what they are told and do nothing to explore if that is really the case, in everything to be honest but that is another story.
The simple fact is, the laptop was developed with a tech which was designed specifically to allow for upgrading.
The laptop was advertised as having the technology and being able to upgrade to the next MXM cards. The next MXM cards are the GTX10 series of cards, it is not as if we are complaining because the GTX20 is out and won't work. Besides that, they usually change the design of the socket when there is a leap so the new card or processor will not even fit on earlier tech.
The MXM 10 series cards are really only just becoming available to purchase individually, as opposed to pre installed in a new laptop and they have confirmed that this laptop will not be able to upgrade.
THE BUCK STOPS RIGHT THERE - QED
It is covered by mis-selling, defective and unfit for a purpose it was purchased
I made a ticket to see what MSI would say, not surprisingly they sent a generic response which didn't actually answer my questions or negotiate anything. It simply told me what I know, that it won't upgrade and that is because of the CPU. They also said I wasn't privy to the upgrade program in my country in the next sentence, which is a contradiction. If there is an upgrade program for my specific model but I am not privy to it, how can it not be possible to upgrade it????
This is now in the hands of the retailer who will have no choice but to refund under the sales of goods act. If they do not, I will make a chargeback via my debit card for the full amount. They will have to show evidence as to why I should not receive it while I show why I should. They will refer to consumer law and the facts. The facts and the law are in my favor and are indisputable.
The only thing that will change is the following.
1 - I WON'T buy MSI again and they loose a customer whose last 3 machines were MSI
2- The retailer looses the sale and on principle I buy elsewhere instead.
3- I still get a new computer.
Sounds fair to me, and all I have to do is wait. Doesn't really get much easier than that does it. While I wait though, seeing as I have the extra time not doing what I should be doing on a suitable computer can be utilized in more productive ways like ensuring each and every forum I find people talking about computers are made aware of this and everyone else's trouble with MSI, broken promises and failure to follow consumer laws.
With so many other choices and competitors around, who wants to buy a computer from a company who you learn quickly has a track record of poor service and poor technology???
ANyway, that is MSI's bad. I used to live in North China and I won't repeat what the Chinese say about MSI as it sounds like a ladies part, the joke goes hehehe.