Doubling up speaker cable, improvement I've noticed
- Thread starter JasonM
- Start date
It's just as in the above picture, so each speaker terminal has 2 wires going to it (instead of 1).
This thread delivers. Please keep going.
This is amazing. I kind of hope you guys are getting seriously trolled.
Not posting speaker models, not doing a blind test. But peddling the line over and over.
It has been a fun read.
It's a bit like a religious hard baller. Trying to convince everyone else. Where a lot of people are trying to change his mind. Some are saying live and let live. But no one budges.
At least most people agree.
I love the techno babble. I love the nonsense. I love the avoidance (speaker model).
I love the comparison between magic (12 cables is better than 1) and obvious improvements (moving speakers around).
But mostly just enjoying the show...
I don't think I'll ever be a believer..
Anything audibly different is measurable, speaker placement, DACs and Amps are all able to show their differences measurably (see all the lovely graphs around) and even then you can argue over whether you can discern those differences (Some people may well have golden ears)..
I've tried bi-wiring and bi-amping on my old B&W Setup and it was obvious it wasn't going to make a blind bit of difference.. We had friends around doing blind tests and none of use remotely guessed either, that includes swapping the QED speaker cables for mains cables..
I'm sorry to say in this case it is clearly placebo because of the obvious differences touted, and I am OK with placebo..
My headphones aren't the best, but OK (Focal Elegia) and like other headphones I find almost every day they sound different, some days a bit crap, some days a bit better, sometimes they start off crap but get better as I listen to more music.. There is nothing wrong with the headphones (occurs on all my headphones), it's the variability of myself.. What I'm not able to do is perform this at will just be looking at a cable or similar..
But there are definitely a few people that can simply set an expectation that for them is absolutely 'real' and they suddenly hear something different.. it's been borne out via double blind testing time and time again..
The only issue IMO is if you start pushing this on to others.. Be happy that you perceived huge differences that make it more enjoyable to you, but you are in a very small minority and it's disingenuous to tell people to spend money for improvements they are highly unlikely to experience.
I almost admire people that can hear the words "Halve the resistance/change the capacitance" and immediately set a huge expectation of improvement which they instantly hear, all I see is halving a tiny value that compared to the load is several orders of magnitude less and expect it'll make bugger all difference that would not be measurable unless compared to a wet piece of string and lo and behold I hear no difference.
I do get that sometimes nay sayers cling equally to incorrect scientific assumptions, such as only ever looking at frequency response as the only measure of audio (very misguided) and can over simplify things, but 99% of the time the sentiment is correct.. There are some clangers though, people clinging to 'digital' must be perfect forget there is a temporal aspect to digitial signals and their presentation, especially compressed audio and famously it has been easily shown the effect on the output when clocks are incorrect etc.. Not to mention analogue biasing/colouring from any DAC.. HDMI is the most disingenuous, the only way anyone has been able to show a difference is through deliberately gimping the test so the 'poor' cable is just causing the HDMI to fall back to a lower bitrate, thus losing information that can be observed.. the reality is that is nothing to do with spending £KKKKK's on a cable, just select a properly constructed/designed one that can achieve the bitrates with ease..
Anything audibly different is measurable, speaker placement, DACs and Amps are all able to show their differences measurably (see all the lovely graphs around) and even then you can argue over whether you can discern those differences (Some people may well have golden ears)..
I've tried bi-wiring and bi-amping on my old B&W Setup and it was obvious it wasn't going to make a blind bit of difference.. We had friends around doing blind tests and none of use remotely guessed either, that includes swapping the QED speaker cables for mains cables..
I'm sorry to say in this case it is clearly placebo because of the obvious differences touted, and I am OK with placebo..
My headphones aren't the best, but OK (Focal Elegia) and like other headphones I find almost every day they sound different, some days a bit crap, some days a bit better, sometimes they start off crap but get better as I listen to more music.. There is nothing wrong with the headphones (occurs on all my headphones), it's the variability of myself.. What I'm not able to do is perform this at will just be looking at a cable or similar..
But there are definitely a few people that can simply set an expectation that for them is absolutely 'real' and they suddenly hear something different.. it's been borne out via double blind testing time and time again..
The only issue IMO is if you start pushing this on to others.. Be happy that you perceived huge differences that make it more enjoyable to you, but you are in a very small minority and it's disingenuous to tell people to spend money for improvements they are highly unlikely to experience.
I almost admire people that can hear the words "Halve the resistance/change the capacitance" and immediately set a huge expectation of improvement which they instantly hear, all I see is halving a tiny value that compared to the load is several orders of magnitude less and expect it'll make bugger all difference that would not be measurable unless compared to a wet piece of string and lo and behold I hear no difference.
I do get that sometimes nay sayers cling equally to incorrect scientific assumptions, such as only ever looking at frequency response as the only measure of audio (very misguided) and can over simplify things, but 99% of the time the sentiment is correct.. There are some clangers though, people clinging to 'digital' must be perfect forget there is a temporal aspect to digitial signals and their presentation, especially compressed audio and famously it has been easily shown the effect on the output when clocks are incorrect etc.. Not to mention analogue biasing/colouring from any DAC.. HDMI is the most disingenuous, the only way anyone has been able to show a difference is through deliberately gimping the test so the 'poor' cable is just causing the HDMI to fall back to a lower bitrate, thus losing information that can be observed.. the reality is that is nothing to do with spending £KKKKK's on a cable, just select a properly constructed/designed one that can achieve the bitrates with ease..
But my positive and negative wires are separated into 2 cables.
I have increased the installation between positive and negative by increasing the air gap.
This increase in installation (air gap) reduces capacitance.
I was almost with it until this point.
I do believe that you believe you can hear a difference. That's OK. Placebo or not, it's real to you.
What's debatable is the science of this, and when your only data is truly subjective observation from one person, it's pretty difficult to come to any reliable conclusion. All we really know is that you've changed the wiring. It would be good if someone professionally qualified could break down in a simple way what the means, electrically, for the system. However, even if we know that, the effect on the sound is still subjective. I would want to measure the frequency response or similar with both setups and compare, so we could really see whether there was a difference. Until then, this thread won't resolve a debate that has raged on for decades that some businesses even make a (somewhat dubious) profit from.
It's known that lower resistance and also lower capacitance are better properties for speaker cable. By doubling up the cable I did exactly this on the cheap.
It's not for me to defend what's already known about better cable properties, but for others to provide a reason why this would not provide any benefit. People have made a lot of noise in this thread, but so far provided no intelligent reason against what I've done.
And I say again, the improvement was not a small difference. It unbalanced the speakers when only done on one channel, the improvement was softer treble and more detail.
But think about this logically..
From Yamaha specs, my speakers are 40watt RMS at 6ohm, there being driven by an 8ohm amp. It's already established that driving a lower ohm speaker (then the amp) requires more power.
In addition my cables are 17AWG (1.15mm), that's not much for those speakers above. Ask most people into HiFi they will say get at least 2.5mm speaker cable, by doubling up the cable I've created a 14AWG (2.3mm) cable.
Remember these cables cost me £10 for 20 meters in a Maplin's closing down, I've not selling you anything here, don't confuse this thread with an expensive or exotic speaker cable.
It's not for me to defend what's already known about better cable properties, but for others to provide a reason why this would not provide any benefit. People have made a lot of noise in this thread, but so far provided no intelligent reason against what I've done.
And I say again, the improvement was not a small difference. It unbalanced the speakers when only done on one channel, the improvement was softer treble and more detail.
But think about this logically..
From Yamaha specs, my speakers are 40watt RMS at 6ohm, there being driven by an 8ohm amp. It's already established that driving a lower ohm speaker (then the amp) requires more power.
In addition my cables are 17AWG (1.15mm), that's not much for those speakers above. Ask most people into HiFi they will say get at least 2.5mm speaker cable, by doubling up the cable I've created a 14AWG (2.3mm) cable.
Remember these cables cost me £10 for 20 meters in a Maplin's closing down, I've not selling you anything here, don't confuse this thread with an expensive or exotic speaker cable.
Last edited:
I'm agree it's fun 
.
This thread as just taken a dramatic change of direction, as moments ago I've just taken delivery of these Van Damme Lo-Cap 55 interconnects
. There for my more expensive system in living room, I already know what there like as use these cables already, I'm off now to set them up
. This thread as just taken a dramatic change of direction, as moments ago I've just taken delivery of these Van Damme Lo-Cap 55 interconnects
. There for my more expensive system in living room, I already know what there like as use these cables already, I'm off now to set them up
What really gets me about all of this is that the studios recording and mastering the sound aren't using these ridiculous cables or 3000 of them connected to one speaker. They are using cables fit for purpose, that do the job.
Ignoring the potential gains (or not) of silly cable configurations, if they aren't mastering or recording on diamond lined, gold dipped, moondust impregnated cables stacked inches thick, then what's the point of listening using equipment beyond what they are using at the point of creation?
Ignoring the potential gains (or not) of silly cable configurations, if they aren't mastering or recording on diamond lined, gold dipped, moondust impregnated cables stacked inches thick, then what's the point of listening using equipment beyond what they are using at the point of creation?
Soldato
- Joined
- 11 May 2007
- Posts
- 9,086
- Location
- Surrey
Just read the Amazon reviews for those Van Damme interconnects. A highlight:
'cables are very system dependent and what worked for me might not work in another context.'
Utter hilarious horse*****.
'cables are very system dependent and what worked for me might not work in another context.'
Utter hilarious horse*****.
Last edited by a moderator:
I've listened to lots of interconnects and these are by far the best I have ever found . Detailed, totally neutral, no noticeable signal loss even on long runs, double shielded so incredibly low noise. These probably provide the best signal possible before going XLR
. Detailed, totally neutral, no noticeable signal loss even on long runs, double shielded so incredibly low noise. These probably provide the best signal possible before going XLRHow are they detailed? No signal loss, why would there be other than the standard loss you get from any electronic connection and resistance.
You talk about wiring as though it has magical properties that just isn't possible. It's a bit of copper wire that transmits a voltage it's that simple.
The fact you think it has no single signal loss on longer find is total horse **** as well that's physically impossible everything has a measurable loss even if you used 0awg.
Part off my job is actually dealing with complicated "interconnects" Google quadrax cable. Even that is just bog standard cable yes it's complicated but as long as it's terminated correctly the best you can achieve is "it works" you can't add anything.
You talk about wiring as though it has magical properties that just isn't possible. It's a bit of copper wire that transmits a voltage it's that simple.
The fact you think it has no single signal loss on longer find is total horse **** as well that's physically impossible everything has a measurable loss even if you used 0awg.
Part off my job is actually dealing with complicated "interconnects" Google quadrax cable. Even that is just bog standard cable yes it's complicated but as long as it's terminated correctly the best you can achieve is "it works" you can't add anything.
Soldato
- Joined
- 24 Aug 2005
- Posts
- 3,959
- Location
- Uranus
Op just don't open up your speakers, the wire they use to connect the crossover to the drivers will be as thin as a spider web.
Soldato
- Joined
- 6 Jan 2012
- Posts
- 5,505
Nah, I would go Naim Super Lumina for £2kYou should have bought some Monster cables or Chord cables!
That's a very good point. Probably soldered by a minimum wage worker who made lots of dry joints with extra voids. LolOp just don't open up your speakers, the wire they use to connect the crossover to the drivers will be as thin as a spider web.