Soldato
EBD ban.
- Thread starter dannyjo22
- Start date
Vettel still had the fastest car at canada. Had the race not had safety cars every 5 minutes for stuff out of his control he would have won the race by a mile.
Button was just much faster for one section of the GP due to getting heat in the tyres because of a higher downforce set up gamble that was supposed to be making them faster in the wet.
Monaco they were slower but they were last year too, the nature of the circuit I assume is why a lot of the advantage they have in the car is reduced. It's not unusual for other cars to make the gap look smaller at monaco.
Sadly EBD is banned at Silverstone because on a higher speed circuit I think you would see Vettels advantage hasn't got anywhere.
Button was just much faster for one section of the GP due to getting heat in the tyres because of a higher downforce set up gamble that was supposed to be making them faster in the wet.
Monaco they were slower but they were last year too, the nature of the circuit I assume is why a lot of the advantage they have in the car is reduced. It's not unusual for other cars to make the gap look smaller at monaco.
Sadly EBD is banned at Silverstone because on a higher speed circuit I think you would see Vettels advantage hasn't got anywhere.
Vettel was indeed subjected to multiple safety cars, however it could also be argued that he effectively managed to get 2 free pit-stops. Conversely, Button had to visit the pitlane about 6 times (I think it was). For me, the safety car and pitstop incidents even themselves out between Button and Vettel. The difference between the 2 cars was raw race pace.
In raw pace, the RBR was no where near the McLaren, where Button was lapping significantly faster than anything that Vettel could manage. In fact, Vettel pushed his car so close to the limit, that he ended up going off the track!
In raw pace, the RBR was no where near the McLaren, where Button was lapping significantly faster than anything that Vettel could manage. In fact, Vettel pushed his car so close to the limit, that he ended up going off the track!
Soldato
No, off-throttle blowing is being limted. The EBD doesn't get banned until next year. In no way is the EBD itself being banned from Silverstone. How are people still getting this wrong?!
Soldato
I will change my ways to stop confusion
Okay mate, sorry for biting your head off. But this whole business of everyone saying "EBD is banned from Silverstone!" when it isn't is just getting a tiny bit irritating now!
Thats not true at all Button was faster for a small section of the race.
Anyone have a list of the laps the safety car was out and I was do a full lap run down. By as much as Button was catching in the last few laps Vettel was faster laps 5-7 9-19 which were under race conditions IIRC.
I can't find a full list of laps under race conditions.
http://www.aaformula1.com/2011/06/canadian-gp-lap-times-button-vettel.html
Right looking at it quickly the race was run from another website, sorry if I'm out anywhere
Laps 5-8 Vettel was significantly faster 3 ish seconds per lap.
Laps 12-19 Vettel was consistently faster than Button by well over a second, most cases 2 or 3 seconds except lap 16 whree button was about 1.1 sec faster.
Laps 35-38 Again Vettel significantly faster (4 seconds) on lap 36 the other laps had them pitting.
Laps 41-56 Again look at the lap times Button hardly features except being 0.05 faster on lap 45 and then Vettel has him more than beat down until lap 53 where he pits and starts to struggle for heat.
Actually look at the comparison lap times had there not been so many safety cars Vettel would have built such a lead, it's far too premature to conclude the Red Bull pace has been matched. One bad stint getting heat in the tyres.
Look at those laps stated in this link Sunama and tell me Vettel didn't have him for pace except for a heat issue on slicks, the gap is huge for most of the race....
http://www.aaformula1.com/2011/06/canadian-gp-lap-times-button-vettel.html
Laps 5-8 Vettel was significantly faster 3 ish seconds per lap.
Laps 12-19 Vettel was consistently faster than Button by well over a second, most cases 2 or 3 seconds except lap 16 whree button was about 1.1 sec faster.
Laps 35-38 Again Vettel significantly faster (4 seconds) on lap 36 the other laps had them pitting.
Laps 41-56 Again look at the lap times Button hardly features except being 0.05 faster on lap 45 and then Vettel has him more than beat down until lap 53 where he pits and starts to struggle for heat.
Actually look at the comparison lap times had there not been so many safety cars Vettel would have built such a lead, it's far too premature to conclude the Red Bull pace has been matched. One bad stint getting heat in the tyres.
Look at those laps stated in this link Sunama and tell me Vettel didn't have him for pace except for a heat issue on slicks, the gap is huge for most of the race....
http://www.aaformula1.com/2011/06/canadian-gp-lap-times-button-vettel.html
I have always beleived that F1 should be about developing new technology and showcasing the latest design marvels.
All I see the FIA doing is trying to interrupt this. I understand the reasons why but I think if a team spends all this money and is winning because they have found a loop hole or just thought of something ingenious then it should be rewarded.
Ive had a few people say to me this is also helping F1's green credentials. I dont think F1 should really be thinking green and should also bring back the V10 era.
All I see the FIA doing is trying to interrupt this. I understand the reasons why but I think if a team spends all this money and is winning because they have found a loop hole or just thought of something ingenious then it should be rewarded.
Ive had a few people say to me this is also helping F1's green credentials. I dont think F1 should really be thinking green and should also bring back the V10 era.
Danny, I am noticing that you are looking at lap times where Button was having to overtake and move through the field. Without a doubt, when a driver is having to overtake people, he is going to be driving slower than the guy in front, in clear air.
The moment Button had dispatched the slower runners and started to encounter the faster drivers (whom he also passed, with apparent ease), his lap times were comparable and faster than Vettel.
The problem Button had was traffic...lots of it.
With regards to Vettel being hampered by the safety car: he got 2 free pit stops, while Button had about 6 passes through the pit lane. I would say that evens it out.
Button killed Vettel on outright pace. Had Button been travelling in clear air throughout the race, like Vettel, Button probably would've been faster than Vettel. Conversely, if it was Vettel who had to overtake 21 cars (or whatever it was), do you think he would've been able to cruise up to the race leader and overtake him?
The fact of the matter is that Button drove a stonking race, involving more overtakes than anybody else in that race, by far. To race from last place (I think he was in 21st), to 1st place, is astonishing. Had Vettel genuinely been faster, there is no way that Button (from last place), could beat Vettel into 1st place.
The moment Button had dispatched the slower runners and started to encounter the faster drivers (whom he also passed, with apparent ease), his lap times were comparable and faster than Vettel.
The problem Button had was traffic...lots of it.
With regards to Vettel being hampered by the safety car: he got 2 free pit stops, while Button had about 6 passes through the pit lane. I would say that evens it out.
Button killed Vettel on outright pace. Had Button been travelling in clear air throughout the race, like Vettel, Button probably would've been faster than Vettel. Conversely, if it was Vettel who had to overtake 21 cars (or whatever it was), do you think he would've been able to cruise up to the race leader and overtake him?
The fact of the matter is that Button drove a stonking race, involving more overtakes than anybody else in that race, by far. To race from last place (I think he was in 21st), to 1st place, is astonishing. Had Vettel genuinely been faster, there is no way that Button (from last place), could beat Vettel into 1st place.
So basically you are wrong and Vettel did have the legs on Button but now we bring traffic into the equation. So the multiple laps Button was 2 or more seconds off Vettels pace was because of traffic?
As I said that doesn't matter because it's not Vettels fault at the front while Button was in the midfield. Had the race been run without safety cars Vettels lap pace shows he would still have won the race, he was pulling out consistentyl faster laps than Button until the slicks.
Not only that only 38 or so laps where at race pace, in racing conditions for 60 odd laps that gap would have been bigger.
Your statement was Red Bull are no longer the fastest car in race trim, you come to that conclusion through two races and only when Button was on slicks was he faster than Vettel. We know why that was though, a bit of luck that the setting they had for the rain actually helped in the drying conditions. It's not like he was actually faster in the wet, no Vettel was consistently over 2 seconds per lap faster than him.
It's laughable to think that's traffic.
I hope Valencia is dry so we can see Button beating Vettel for pace as the red bull is now the third fastest car in your eyes. So we should see the Red Bulls mashed for pace.
Personally I think you have read far too much into Monaco and a wet race and Red Bulls demise far too prematurely.
As I said that doesn't matter because it's not Vettels fault at the front while Button was in the midfield. Had the race been run without safety cars Vettels lap pace shows he would still have won the race, he was pulling out consistentyl faster laps than Button until the slicks.
Not only that only 38 or so laps where at race pace, in racing conditions for 60 odd laps that gap would have been bigger.
Your statement was Red Bull are no longer the fastest car in race trim, you come to that conclusion through two races and only when Button was on slicks was he faster than Vettel. We know why that was though, a bit of luck that the setting they had for the rain actually helped in the drying conditions. It's not like he was actually faster in the wet, no Vettel was consistently over 2 seconds per lap faster than him.
It's laughable to think that's traffic.
I hope Valencia is dry so we can see Button beating Vettel for pace as the red bull is now the third fastest car in your eyes. So we should see the Red Bulls mashed for pace.
Personally I think you have read far too much into Monaco and a wet race and Red Bulls demise far too prematurely.
Soldato
If you want times on the hop that the title has been won in the final round....can do.
Your 80% figure is repeatable more than once in the World Championship era. The first five seasons of the 1980s - title won in the final round 80% of the time. The last five years of the 1990s - title won in the final round 80% of the time. On both of those occasions, the title was won in the final round 4 times in a row. So what we have seen of late is hardly a massive statistical anomaly.
The original discussion was centered around, whether the RBR car is faster than the McLaren.
I stated that the McLaren was quicker.
You stated that the RBR was faster.
My reasoning is that Button had to scythe through traffic and still caught Vettel. Once both cars were in clear air, Button was faster. Thiis fact is what allowed Button to catch and pass Vettel. Had Vettel been faster than Button, Button would never have passed Vettel. How could he?
You are suggesting that Vettel was faster than Button. Please explain how a slower car (assuming that Button was slower) can come from 21st place and win the race, given that Vettel did not have any incidents (except for the final lap) and was not held up by anyone?
Button was the fastest car/driver combo at Canada. I'm stunned that you are arguing to the contrary.
I stated that the McLaren was quicker.
You stated that the RBR was faster.
My reasoning is that Button had to scythe through traffic and still caught Vettel. Once both cars were in clear air, Button was faster. Thiis fact is what allowed Button to catch and pass Vettel. Had Vettel been faster than Button, Button would never have passed Vettel. How could he?
You are suggesting that Vettel was faster than Button. Please explain how a slower car (assuming that Button was slower) can come from 21st place and win the race, given that Vettel did not have any incidents (except for the final lap) and was not held up by anyone?
Button was the fastest car/driver combo at Canada. I'm stunned that you are arguing to the contrary.
He was faster for one section of the GP. He was slower for longer periods of the gp than he was faster than vettel, the lap times bear that out. Any advantage vettel had was lost each time under a safety car. He doesn't get free pitstop under a safety car, he still loses time, I'd bet they would much rather have not had the safety cars and kept extending that gap to button.
He won the race because the field got bunched up multiple times. Vettel was faster than him through all but about 2 of the laps up until button went to slicks. Even though he was carrying more downforce than Vettel he couldn't match him on wets or inters.
Button was not a worry for the pace of the Red Bull until that stint on slicks, he got lucky very lucky. He did well to pass and the race was edge of the seat but he backed into it. He wasn't a match for either his team mate or the red bull until the slicks.
Besides lets stop debating it in here, lets see what happens at Valencia because after all Red Bull are the third fastest car now. No doubt as usual you will flip flop on that statement.
Just for the record which car is the fastest now Mclaren or Ferrari? Just so I have the right order for who will win.
He won the race because the field got bunched up multiple times. Vettel was faster than him through all but about 2 of the laps up until button went to slicks. Even though he was carrying more downforce than Vettel he couldn't match him on wets or inters.
Button was not a worry for the pace of the Red Bull until that stint on slicks, he got lucky very lucky. He did well to pass and the race was edge of the seat but he backed into it. He wasn't a match for either his team mate or the red bull until the slicks.
Besides lets stop debating it in here, lets see what happens at Valencia because after all Red Bull are the third fastest car now. No doubt as usual you will flip flop on that statement.
Just for the record which car is the fastest now Mclaren or Ferrari? Just so I have the right order for who will win.
We will have to agree to disagree on Canada.
Based on the last 2 races (only), from what I've seen:
McLaren
Ferrari
RBR.
However, just bear in mind that there is very little to choose between the 3 cars and it is likely that you will see slight variation in who is fastest, from track to track. Some tracks will suit the RBR, some McLaren and some Ferrari. Ferrari are dodgy on harder tyres...so if we have a hard compound of tyre, I expect Ferrari to suffer (Ferrari went backwards in Span, when they switched to hard tyres).
RBR however, are no longer the outright dominant force which they were at the start of the season and in race trim - McLaren or Ferrari can beat RBR. Vettel is no longer guaranteed a podium.
The above comments only apply to race pace.
Qualifying pace: RBR are tops, especially with Vettel's electric qualifying pace.
Based on the last 2 races (only), from what I've seen:
McLaren
Ferrari
RBR.
However, just bear in mind that there is very little to choose between the 3 cars and it is likely that you will see slight variation in who is fastest, from track to track. Some tracks will suit the RBR, some McLaren and some Ferrari. Ferrari are dodgy on harder tyres...so if we have a hard compound of tyre, I expect Ferrari to suffer (Ferrari went backwards in Span, when they switched to hard tyres).
RBR however, are no longer the outright dominant force which they were at the start of the season and in race trim - McLaren or Ferrari can beat RBR. Vettel is no longer guaranteed a podium.
The above comments only apply to race pace.
Qualifying pace: RBR are tops, especially with Vettel's electric qualifying pace.
I just read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13839176.stm
It would appear that I am not alone in thinking that RBR no longer have the fastest race car...
And on the subject of Button staying or moving...if Ferrari really want success they will do whatever it takes to prise Button away from McLaren. Surely Alonso and Button would be the strongest driver pairing in F1 by far (were it to happen). They would need to pay Button handsomely though, as he will be forced in to playing second fiddle to Alonso. I'm sure Ferrari could afford it
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13839176.stm
It would appear that I am not alone in thinking that RBR no longer have the fastest race car...
And on the subject of Button staying or moving...if Ferrari really want success they will do whatever it takes to prise Button away from McLaren. Surely Alonso and Button would be the strongest driver pairing in F1 by far (were it to happen). They would need to pay Button handsomely though, as he will be forced in to playing second fiddle to Alonso. I'm sure Ferrari could afford it
Associate
Like this little plan
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92494
Expect this to reverse by the end of the day.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92494
Expect this to reverse by the end of the day.
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 21 Nov 2004
- Posts
- 46,245
I really hope the FIA don't reverse this.