EBD ban.

[DBT85]

Fair enough but expand on why you think that?

I might end up agreeing with you

Hehe I'll give it a whirl.

I think that like most of the F1 rules its about the interpretation. Like the RB front wing which quite defiantly does flex when the rules say it shouldn't but since it passes the test its ok.

As far as I am aware the rules on moveable aero for that season related to the car and not the driver. Since the F duct was essentially a tube running the length of the car with a hole in it that the driver put his finger in nothing "on the car" actually moved. Yes the aero was changed but the car itself which is the only thing that is subject to those rules didn't actually do anything. It was tantamount to sticking your arm out of the window and angling your hand a bit to gain a bit of downforce. I'm not saying its right or that it shouldn't have been banned, but I can understand why it wouldn't be since the car itself was essentially innocent.

From what I understand of the EBD and how it works that is not the case however. Its the car itself which is causing the change in aero via computer control of the engine. All the time the driver is on throttle there is no problem. Using the exhaust in a clever way to gain downforce should be commended since the exhaust is just a by product of running the engine that they found a use for. But then when the driver takes his foot off the throttle and the computer takes over with the sole intention of changing the aerodynamics of the car it seems to be not to be much different to the Fan Car. You have the hulking great engine breathing fire into the exhausts with the sole reason to be to gain downforce.

I think it should be allowed to stay for the season simply because I don't like them changing things around mid season regardless of who loses out or benefits. I can understand WHY they would want to ban it though

 

[Slam62]

Just looks like the fia are just closing a loop hole... Some teams got an advantage but I don't think for a second they thought they were developing something within the rules, just a fuzzy area that would take the fia months to agree to close down.

well yes and any team and that teams supporters will vehemently defend it's use.


in this case however it is rather silly and pointless

a bit like the flexi floor and flexi wings

I mean the whole point of the standard ecu was to avoid this sort of thing and make the coding transparent

 

[Slam62]

hey, I've an idea, turn the engine upside down and suck out air from under the car creating more down force... hmm this could work.

or run pipes from the inlet to the underneath of the car.

 

[sunama]

Therefore, I don't think you can really accuse the FIA of being incompetent.

I'm certainly not accusing the FIA of being incompetent.

On the contrary, I think they are extremely cunning and well briefed (much better than any of us armchair enthusiasts).

Think about this:
In 2010, the title went to the last race of the season.
In 2009, the title went to the last race of the season.
In 2008, the title went to the last race of the season.
In 2007, the title went to the last race of the season.
In 2006, the title went to the last race of the season.

Are you beginning to see a pattern here?

Now, law of averages would suggest that a title race would not be decided in the last GP of the season for 5 years in a row. Those odds are pretty long, yet thats what transpired.

My belief is that the FIA are manipulating the championship in order to ensure that the championship goes down to the last race of the season and people continue to watch races, all season long. If the title is won with 3 races to spare, say, there is a good chance that viewing figures will decline.

Why do I say that the FIA are cunning and know more than any of us?
Lets take last year as an example. Most F1 followers were thinking that the way RBR were going (in some instance 1s/lap faster than everybody else), they would take the title race with races to spare. The FIA could've banned flexi wings, for example and slowed RBR down. Did they? No. This was the right decision, because if the FIA had slowed RBR down, the title race may not have gone down to the final race of the season.

I can give you many more examples, but you get my point.

 

[TaKeN]

Slam62, you didn't reply when I previously asked you what your actual 'field of work' is, would you care to answer now please? I'm still intrieged!

Do the FIA see Renault Engines as having a wild advantage when it comes to EBDs due to their route of engine design for this season? For example, is it near impossible for the engineers at Cosworth to ever replicate a similar engine setup that can run an EBD in the same fashion?

 

[DBT85]

On the contrary, I think they are extremely cunning and well briefed (much better than any of us armchair enthusiasts).

Think about this:
In 2010, the title went to the last race of the season.
In 2009, the title went to the last race of the season.
In 2008, the title went to the last race of the season.
In 2007, the title went to the last race of the season.
In 2006, the title went to the last race of the season.

Have you got a list of rule any rule changes (not clarifications) brought in mid season that might have affected that? I honestly can't remember what may or may not have changed.

 

[Slam62]

Slam62, you didn't reply when I previously asked you what your actual 'field of work' is, would you care to answer now please? I'm still intrieged!

Do the FIA see Renault Engines as having a wild advantage when it comes to EBDs due to their route of engine design for this season? For example, is it near impossible for the engineers at Cosworth to ever replicate a similar engine setup that can run an EBD in the same fashion?

hmm

engineering, thermodynamics, very high tech..

is that enough?

edit: as to the second question the EBD could be done on any engine, it might make the life calcs a bit difficult, that's all.

it' just a pointless way to develop and goes against the FIA trying to make F1 green.

 

[Slam62]

ho hum..
shamelessly stolen from elsewhere

The special engines modes that, purportedly, are being used do much more than that and are the very reason, according to Charlie Whiting, that they are now being banned.
When off-throttle, fuel is constantly being 'dumped' through open exhaust valves into the exhaust chamber whilst simultaneously, the engine throttle is left open.

The intent of all of this is to maximise the volume and kinetic energy of the gases reaching the diffuser.

These maps are used in qualifying (Q3 for the front running teams) only because of the extreme temperatures being generated and because fuel consumption would be impractical in the race.

Whereas the restrictions on the throttle opening on the overrun will be implemented as from Silverstone, AMuS is reporting that these "extreme" engine maps will not be allowed in Valencia.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-...ft-3845606.html

seems like 'they' may have been pumping loads of fuel in during the down stroke, hence the FIA realising and getting all shirty.

Other points made were that the RB exhaust is dangerously close to the tyres and that engine maps will be frozen between quali and the race.

Seems to have been a proper old goldmine.


The engines have injectors though so no fuel would be 'dumped through exhaust valves'

edit: actually, I see that they probably mean unburnt fuel on it's way out, but I would think they would ignite it with a spark before BDC on the downstroke and then it gets blown out as burnt gases that didn't produce any torque.

 

[TaKeN]

Thanks for the reply. I didn't mean to make my question sound rude sorry!

The statement from charlie whiting is one I've read before, I find it all pretty similar to the normal concept of a road car engine, but using trickery

So F1 engines don't have normal inlet and exhaust valves?

 

[Slam62]

Thanks for the reply. I didn't mean to make my question sound rude sorry!

The statement from charlie whiting is one I've read before, I find it all pretty similar to the normal concept of a road car engine, but using trickery

So F1 engines don't have normal inlet and exhaust valves?

they do, but I believe they use pneumatic valve springs to allow the higher revs.

it's exactly the same as a road car engine, except where they have fiddled with the timing.

 

[JRS]

In 2009, the title went to the last race of the season.

No it didn't. Button won the WDC and Brawn won the WCC in Brazil. Abu Dhabi was the last race of the year.

 

[Glaucus]

I mean the whole point of the standard ecu was to avoid this sort of thing and make the coding transparent

I don't think it was they are allowed to engine map. I'm pretty sure it was introduced to stop electronically controlling any other part of the car and to introduce a standard ecu that fia could easily test. But with in spcertain areas are allowed to change what they want. Although I'm willing to stand correct as it was a few years ago.

 

[TaKeN]

I see you edited your post Slam62

The engines have injectors though so no fuel would be 'dumped through exhaust valves'

edit: actually, I see that they probably mean unburnt fuel on it's way out, but I would think they would ignite it with a spark before BDC on the downstroke and then it gets blown out as burnt gases that didn't produce any torque.

I asked the valve question as your part about the Engines having injectors confused me slightly!

My interpretation of how the system works is similar to yours. Would you really need that spark though? Seeing as an F1 engine exhaust system runs red hot, surely any atomised fuel would freely ignite once exiting the exhaust valves and entering the exhaust.

 

[sunama]

No it didn't. Button won the WDC and Brawn won the WCC in Brazil. Abu Dhabi was the last race of the year.

Yep. Just checked. My mistake.

I still make that 4 out of 5 years, where the title race went down to the last race.

From what I remember, this sort of thing didn't used to happen. Yet, these days, it seems to be a very common occurrence and the norm. My belief is that the reason why this is happening is that the FIA are interfering and medling (with the rules) to ensure that title goes down to the wire.

 

[DBT85]

My belief is that the reason why this is happening is that the FIA are interfering and medling (with the rules) to ensure that title goes down to the wire.

But have you got a list of the meddling done in those seasons? They didn't ban the DD when Brawn were storming ahead, they didn't ban the f-duct (though McLaren were not storming away with it), they haven't banned the flexi front wing.

Or are you referring to the rule changes they make every year pre season?

Could it not just be that the big teams are getting better at either copying or finding time than they used to be?

 

[godinman]

I see you edited your post Slam62
My interpretation of how the system works is similar to yours. Would you really need that spark though? Seeing as an F1 engine exhaust system runs red hot, surely any atomised fuel would freely ignite once exiting the exhaust valves and entering the exhaust.

I assume if they didn't ignite it in the cylinder you'd end up with flames shooting out of the exhaust on over-run.

 

[JRS]

Yep. Just checked. My mistake.

I still make that 4 out of 5 years, where the title race went down to the last race.

From what I remember, this sort of thing didn't used to happen. Yet, these days, it seems to be a very common occurrence and the norm. My belief is that the reason why this is happening is that the FIA are interfering and medling (with the rules) to ensure that title goes down to the wire.

The title has gone down to the wire in less than half of the seasons races so far. I think it breaks down like this - 5 times in the '50s, 4 times in the '60s, twice in the '70s, 5 times in the '80s, 5 times in the '90s, 4 times in the '00s and of course last year.

 

[sunama]

So, from what you have stated above, it would suggest that the title generally goes down to the last race of the season in just under half of the seasons.

So, if I were to tell you that in the last 5 years, the title race has gone down to the final race of the season, 80% of the time...statistically, this is off.

The 1 season that really sticks out in my mind with regards to FIA manipulation of the title race is 1994. The banning of MSc and removal of his race win at Spa, was designed to allow Hill and MSc to go into Australia, 1 point apart.

Some people think that the FIA haven't a clue what they are doing. I would suggest the opposite. They could've banned the flexi wing last year (a knee jerk reaction to seeing how dominant the RBR car was), but they didn't. They were right because as it happened, Vettel only won the title in the final race of the season.

At the end of the day, the powers that be have to put on a good show and the best show is generally that, which involved the title race going down to the final race of the season. To this end, the FIA are doing pretty well.

By the way JRS, I don't think I've ever heard you comment about DRS...do you like?

 

[utajoker]

So fia ban the blown diffuser to allow Hamilton and button to catch vettel putting them into the last race split by 6 points meaning who ever wins is champ by 1 point.

You heard it here first.

 

[sunama]

Hehehe. It could happen.

Based on the last 2 races (only), Ferrari and McLaren already have faster race cars, though obviously the gap between the top 3 cars is very little and will almost certainly vary from track to track.

I actually felt that the last 2 races were some of Vettel's best, simply because he managed to eek out a win and 2nd place, in what was not the fastest car (even if he did some help with a red flag, in Monaco ).

With regards to the McLaren, at this stage, I can't help but feel that Ferrari are going to be the most likely title challengers, though McLaren are beginning to look irresistible now.