Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

[ljt]

Ah yeah I think I remember you saying. It's amazing how bad insulation is going back in years. At my sisters new build over Christmas and house was so even in temperature and boiler wasn't on. Must save a fortune.

My loft seems well insulated with rockwool, looks pretty deep to me. I'm sure my walls are insulated (I've seen rockwool poke through when I've drilled through an external wall to feed cables through before) and the double glazing is about 5 years old. My useage was keeping it at 21c pretty much 6.30am - 10.30pm then 18c overnight (which meant heating basically didn't come on between 10.30pm until about 5.30am)

 

[jpaul]

ASHP/GSHP
even in Norway hshp expensive 60 year amortization

How Norway Popularized an Ultra-Sustainable Heating Method

Norway has by far the most installed heat pumps per capita, a cheap, highly efficient way to keep homes warm -- and carbon footprints small.

reasonstobecheerful.world

But Norway is by far the leader of the pack. With 1.4 million units, it has 604 heat pumps installed for every 1,000 households. The next closest are Sweden with 427 per 1,000 and Finland with 408 per 1,000.

Another obstacle is the upfront cost. According to Hagemoen, while air-to-air systems are the cheapest option at around €1,500 to €3,000 (USD $1,700 to $3,400), air to water heat pumps can cost up to €15,000, and geothermal systems, the most efficient, can cost over €25,000. At the same time, gas boilers remain very cheap in many European countries. “Most people are more interested in the investment costs,” he says. “So for the moment you need subsidy schemes and building regulations for people to choose heat pumps.”
...

Meanwhile, technological advances could see heat pump use expand beyond households and into industry. Norway is developing a heat pump that can produce temperatures of up to 180C (356F), and according to research by Sintef Energy Research, the Norwegian University of Science & Technology, and industrial partner ToCircle, the technology could allow a fifth of all European industry to cut its energy use by 70 percent.

e:A comprehensive estimation of the data presented in a study published by NOVAP indicates that the amount of liquid-to-water heat pump sales until 2020 is closer to 50,000 in Norway [21]. The sales number of liquid-to-water (GCHP) units is much lower than that of ASHPs in Norway. Since 2002, GCHP heat pumps have been sold for almost five percent of the total sales, which is quite a low ratio compared to other types of heat pumps, as shown in Fig. 3. GCHPs sales in the last decade of the 20th century were not bad; however, heat pumps were not as common in Norway as after the energy crisis in 2002, as shown in...
The cost of drilling boreholes with depths of 100–300 m in Norway is 40,000 to 100,000 NOK, depending on ground conditions at a site [50]. On the other hand, energy geostructures, such as energy piles, have no additional drilling cost since the piles are constructed for structural reasons to support a building. Hence, in buildings with pile foundations, it is best to utilize them as a heat source for GSHPs. The only additional cost for the energy geostructures is embedding high-density polyethylene (HDPE) pipes inside the concrete and the heat carrier fluid within them [51]

 

[Jokester]

Biggest issues with ground source heat pumps is you either need quite a large garden (500m2 - size of two tennis courts, for a typical home I think is quoted) or a fairly deep bore hole, which depending on the local geology can be very expensive to implement.

 

[Harnser]

in terms of producing the heat so it more efficiently heats -you- IR heaters are where it's at V I'd like to try one for WFH

They only work with direct line of sight so completely ineffective in a lot of scenarios. As soon as you switch them off, you'll be cold again as its not radiant heat like you get from a traditional system. They have their uses, such as heating a single office room during the day but please don't kid yourself its some kind of replacement for your whole house. They are also ugly as sin and huge if you are trying to cover a room.

The market is also murky. There is no independent standard for infrared panel heaters. Sellers love to shout "100% efficient" as electric heating but there's no meausre of how much IR their panel outputs vs standard convection heating, or how far their IR travels.

Austria is supposed to be the leading manufacturer (Degxel, Redwell) and their panels have a significant price premium. They may use a more efficient type of panel but cost 2-3x the price of Chinese ones.

 

[jpaul]

Austria is supposed to be the leading manufacturer (Degxel, Redwell) and their panels have a significant price premium

interesting £800 for a 200W heater https://www.degxel.co.uk/product-category/energy-efficient-space-heater
but , they use an IR camera to provide surface temperature which I hadn't seen for £150 vassner

Seems not all of the Octoper Ofgem cap rise was down to wholesale costs, although this is old news by now, I only just read about it. I do think Ofgem has been molly coddling the suppliers too much.

yes good point I'd forgotten dissent in ofgem ranks ... I guess Sunak is protecting them, Kier needs to be on this, it's a(my) vote winner

 

[eddyr]

interesting £800 for a 200W heater https://www.degxel.co.uk/product-category/energy-efficient-space-heater
but , they use an IR camera to provide surface temperature which I hadn't seen for £150 vassner

Those are pretty fancy looking and quite a price premium.
I'm pretty sure I've seen radiant heaters for £30 in B&Q when I went in there a few weeks back, not quite the centrepiece as those ones but get the job done.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

Wearing shorts and t-shirt in winter might be pushing it but it does seem crazy in this world of modern tech that heating a home to a comfortable temperature is too expensive for many.

We need the equivalent of the LED breakthrough in lighting for heating. We reduced a 100w lightbulb to 10/15w, need to do the same with electric heating.

Alternatively we need to do something about ageing housing stock thats horribly inefficient at retaining heat, we need grants for home insulation... oh wait this govt cancelled all those, didn't they.

 

[squerble]

Yep. Heat pumps are in fact that "moment" (despite the tech being around for decades) - well-insulated housing would have meant vastly reduced energy usage, and none of this worry about "bUt ThEy DoN't WoRk BeLoW fReEzInG" nonsense.

 

[IvanDobskey]

My bill for December was £300 That's as much as the mortgage!

 

[burtie]

Just has British gas put my electric direct debit down from £200 to £150 even though we're £50 in debt by the end of the tariff.

I just put it back up to £200 and it says I'll be £200 in credit by the end of the tariff, which I definitely won't be, makes no sense!!

 

[bigmike20vt]

Just has British gas put my electric direct debit down from £200 to £150 even though we're £50 in debt by the end of the tariff.

I just put it back up to £200 and it says I'll be £200 in credit by the end of the tariff, which I definitely won't be, makes no sense!!

well i will say that is a 1st... usually the opposite happens... I cant grumble about Octopus but i know not everyone has had the same experience as me. After a tiny amount of hassle agreeing my DD, they have left me to it and i had been slowly decreasing my monthly payments to get the amount right and now been holding steady for 4 months. I am about spot on now - at least until my fixed terms end then i will have to up everything but i am £300 in credit and holding steady. it was going up by a small amount each month but december and jan (and possibly Feb) it will definitely go down a bit as those months have my highest net usage.

 

[~Mike~]

Had my business fixed price renewal offer come in from EDF, apparently it is competitive!

Easy Fix - Standing 60 (ppd) & Unit Rate 82.41 (ppkWh)
or
Extended supply - Standing 250 (ppd) & Unit Rate 81.50 (ppkWh)



These prices do not reflect any discount from EBRS which I believe ends on the 31st March?

 

[Uther]

Had my business fixed price renewal offer come in from EDF, apparently it is competitive!

Easy Fix - Standing 60 (ppd) & Unit Rate 82.41 (ppkWh)
or
Extended supply - Standing 250 (ppd) & Unit Rate 81.50 (ppkWh)



These prices do not reflect any discount from EBRS which I believe ends on the 31st March?

RIP!

 

[Ali195]

Alternatively we need to do something about ageing housing stock thats horribly inefficient at retaining heat, we need grants for home insulation... oh wait this govt cancelled all those, didn't they.

They keep rolling it out, spaffing money to terribly inefficient firms to process claims that end up frustrating the local (good) tradesmen to not bother with the hassle. The good folks are not short of work and there's no long term incentive for something poorly rolled out.

So in the end the good local guys won't touch it and questionable parasite firms popup hooving up grant money then disappear soon as the scheme ends.

Gonna be a lot of cowboys about when GSHP, ASHP really take off in a decade or so.


These schemes need to be continuous. Every household in the UK should be know about them, how to access them, it should be common knowledge to the point of "oh wow, you paid for that? You didn't use the Gov grant?".

 

[bigmike20vt]

i am sure i am blisfully naive but it does seem to be the way that grants just reward middle men and chancers and manufactures just put their prices up (a bit like some builders automatically add a few quid on when quoting for insurance jobs)

but really is there no way to actually run a grant system fairly and properly. perhaps businesses would have to have been in business for a certain amount of time and also there be random audits where they can prove that their prices didnt magically increase after the grant was done.... and IF found to be cooking the books and taking advantage they get large fines and kicked off the list of approved people?

 

[robgmun]

My bill for December was £300 That's as much as the mortgage!

I'm on hold with EDF right now to give my meter readings and generate a bill. I expect it to be about there even after the £67 discount. No idea how we're going to cope next winter.

 

[bigmike20vt]

is there no chance next winter will be better? i thought part of the problem was France had had to shut down multiple nuclear stations for emergency repairs, as well as damage to the interconnect from France.
Also i thought they were uncoupling the price of gas from the price of cleaner electricity which should mean a large portion of our energy should come down in price.

or am i wrong?

 

[IvanDobskey]

I'm on hold with EDF right now to give my meter readings and generate a bill. I expect it to be about there even after the £67 discount. No idea how we're going to cope next winter.

It's a big worry for sure Just thankful me and the Mrs are in decent jobs currently. This must really be hurting some people. Yet still no sign of a plan from the government.

 

[jpaul]

So without energy price guarantee or £69, it'll be the cornwall insites 4.2K price cap in April 37/61/31/15.8p, versus 46/34/28/10.3
so typical bill £330 (£255 for those with newly announce benefits £300/4months), versus march £202, even though typical gas use drops 1521->1011

e: or if hunt does keep £3K energy cap maybe he promised in Nov 37/46/31/12.5

so typical bill £330£257 (£255£182 for those with newly announce benefits £300/4months), versus march £202, even though typical gas use drops 1521->1011

 

[413x]

I expect some sort of support will have to return if prices aren't naturally lower than the current government support come winter 2023.