Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

Curlyriff said:
Long term renewable production and storage. Regardless now they should delink renewable energy from gas pricing. People will be paying less, want more to move to, increase income from said resource and thus allow greater investment into said areas.

Battery storage can now be used on commercial scale. We are doing it on a project on top of a multistory carpark with PV across the office/hotel roofs accordingly to provide around 2MWh. Might not be the most but its a solid investment to the local off grid usage.

The office space is around 40,000sqft so if you take the average of 22.5kWh a year per soft you are talking around 900,000kWh. That is about 2465kWh a day.

Now if you are able to provide a significant amount during the day through the PV but generally office is mostly shut down by 5pm then the hours after can start to store that energy for the next day. Beyond that the battery can take from grid during cheaper off-peak to top up and the next day use from battery whilst supplementing from the PV.

Just saying let's have forced blackouts isn't helpful or a solution, it is a bandaid over the problem.
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Well I am not saying we should be doing blackouts deliberately, was just a personal preference of what I would bear more.

The ultimate priority at this point is reducing cost of energy, because having energy available at grid level doesnt necessarily mean security for individuals and businesses, those who cant afford it will self disconnect or go out of business.
 
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Interesting. BBC running story that this is the first real saving session.
I know some of the previous were tests, they said there would be tests, but had assumed that at least the longest one was a real one.

Might be why the pricing is different, and this is the "real" pricing
 
yes the BBC rhetoric on todays real saving session is weird, they still have some backup gas generating stations on call,
doubt they will consider the previous saving potential, come 16:30 when they are evaluating if they need to be solicited after 5
 
How much do you guys even save?
I stubby fully understand how it works.

I think I thought it was useless for us as its based on history? And you need a certain smart meter?
 
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You need 30 minute readings.

I've been rewarded £18 so far over 5 sessions.
I haven't done anything than switching some usage around.

Its probably cost me a few quid in a couple of days overcharging but thats the max.

Otherwise I am just helping by switching my usage (I'm really keen to show that in effect demand pricing will really work), and a little bit of well if they set rules I can manipulate a little I may as well :D
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
You need 30 minute readings.

I've been rewarded £18 so far over 5 sessions.
I haven't done anything than switching some usage around.

Its probably cost me a few quid in a couple of days overcharging but thats the max.

Otherwise I am just helping by switching my usage (I'm really keen to show that in effect demand pricing will really work), and a little bit of well if they set rules I can manipulate a little I may as well :D
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I expect for the average person like me there isn't much reward. Its more EV/battery set ups.

I doubt Scottish Power do it anyway. Data in my app is only daily.
 
it would be a minor hassle (actually dont know how to do it but i believe its possible), but IF i could cover my costs (as in i dont need to profit from it just not pay more than usual) i would happily stop my battery all day and then just dump it all to the grid between 5 and 6pm.

the problem is 1) i dont know how to do it as the controls on my inverter are pretty terrible, but 2) mostly, even if i did do it, i would get 4p per kwh for it, added to the fact that i would have to pay the costs for energy during the day.

i really do want to do my bit but out of principle do not want to be out of pocket doing it. As it stands at the moment people with solar are in a good place.............. i am currently charging my battery and its at 85% full, will be fully topped off by lunch time and i will be generating for the grid this afternoon (unless my hands get so cold i am forced to put heating on in my home office)

IF more people had solar and batteries days like today - cold but bright - would make a huge dent in residential energy demand.
 
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octopus description of saving algorithm is good

If your savings still don’t look quite enough based on what you’ve used in the past, it might be down to the way we have to calculate your energy saving.

First, we need to work out your ‘normal energy use’ at the time of each Saving Session - so we can then compare it to what you use during the Session to work out your saving. There’s a strict formula we have to follow set by the National Grid.

We first look at your meter readings from the same time as the Session over the past 10 weekdays (excluding any days with a Saving Session). We use those to find the average amount of electricity you typically use then.

One final step: we have to adjust for your energy use on the day of the Session. This adjustment is a check to make sure you actually used some power at other times that day. It works by weighting your ‘normal energy use’ figure based on your readings from earlier in the day. If you use energy as normal, your normal use figure should stay the same.

But if, say, you switch off every plug on the morning of the Session and don’t get back til after its finished, your readings for the day of the Session will be unusually low, bringing your normal energy use down.

So even though your energy use during the Session is much lower than what you used at that time in the past 10 days, it’s not really lower than the energy you used during the day.

This means that some people who prepare for their Saving Session by switching off hours in advance might end up earning slightly less during their Sessions. We can’t change how we calculate this (it’s a requirement to be part of the grid’s project!) But, we have asked National Grid to consider changing the in-day adjustment calculation so it doesn’t negatively impact the Savers that prepare further in advance.

What should you do to avoid this?

Try to shift more of your peak energy to before the Session – e.g. try to run the washing and cook earlier rather than later – and avoid switching everything off hours ahead of time.
 
jpaul said:
octopus description of saving algorithm is good

If your savings still don’t look quite enough based on what you’ve used in the past, it might be down to the way we have to calculate your energy saving.

First, we need to work out your ‘normal energy use’ at the time of each Saving Session - so we can then compare it to what you use during the Session to work out your saving. There’s a strict formula we have to follow set by the National Grid.

We first look at your meter readings from the same time as the Session over the past 10 weekdays (excluding any days with a Saving Session). We use those to find the average amount of electricity you typically use then.

One final step: we have to adjust for your energy use on the day of the Session. This adjustment is a check to make sure you actually used some power at other times that day. It works by weighting your ‘normal energy use’ figure based on your readings from earlier in the day. If you use energy as normal, your normal use figure should stay the same.

But if, say, you switch off every plug on the morning of the Session and don’t get back til after its finished, your readings for the day of the Session will be unusually low, bringing your normal energy use down.

So even though your energy use during the Session is much lower than what you used at that time in the past 10 days, it’s not really lower than the energy you used during the day.

This means that some people who prepare for their Saving Session by switching off hours in advance might end up earning slightly less during their Sessions. We can’t change how we calculate this (it’s a requirement to be part of the grid’s project!) But, we have asked National Grid to consider changing the in-day adjustment calculation so it doesn’t negatively impact the Savers that prepare further in advance.

What should you do to avoid this?

Try to shift more of your peak energy to before the Session – e.g. try to run the washing and cook earlier rather than later – and avoid switching everything off hours ahead of time.
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i dont blame octopus at all. its not their fault but there are some massive loopholes in the above system (Octopus even say as much above).

it encourages people to use more power in the run up to the event, so they can game the system.

there definitely needs to be a flat bonus for people who manage to use under X amount of power for that period regardless of low use before (X to be determined by some algorithm i guess), but also with a modifier for not punishing those who actually cut their energy all day.

I mean, it isnt like the power is really cheap on the run up to 5pm either, far better to push it all to completely off peak but this current system actively discourages that.
 
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bigmike20vt said:
i dont blame octopus at all. its not their fault but there are some massive loopholes in the above system (Octopus even say as much above).

it encourages people to use more power in the run up to the event, so they can game the system.

there definitely needs to be a flat bonus for people who manage to use under X amount of power for that period regardless of low use before (X to be determined by some algorithm i guess), but also with a modifier for not punishing those who actually cut their energy all day.

I mean, it isnt like the power is really cheap on the run up to 5pm either, far better to push it all to completely off peak but this current system actively discourages that.
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Is a difficult one to make work.

-If the reward isn't high what's the point? (selfishly)
-You can game it if you want
-if you don't use much its not worth it
-you really need batteries to be able to cut/move around your power consumption.

Is know for us. (octopus blurb is useful) as we don't use loads at any particular time. High power stuff is used rarely. Tumble dryer once a week in winter. Plasma TV is steady draw. Kettle etc is used erratically. As is dishwasher/washing machine.
 
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As always the system is designed that it is those who consume most who benefit most.

I posted it in another thread but for every kwh used between 1-4pm today that you would not normally use, your getting in effect £1.11. So pay 34p, get £1.11 back.
(As long as you do use less energy between 5-6pm)

The point of the scheme is to reduce the grid demand between 5-6pm, people that use little then, use little then. Them reducing usage isn't helping compared to high usage individuals.
Rewarding them for constantly using little would be daft in the context of a saving session, but maybe something that could be considered to trigger "good behaviour" over longer periods.
Problem is you then get into say people who work later shifts so always out at peak times, always having low usage, people with batteries/solar who can also always use low then.

Really its coming back to on demand pricing, which would get the majority making the best decisions repeatedly.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
As always the system is designed that it is those who consume most who benefit most.

I posted it in another thread but for every kwh used between 1-4pm today that you would not normally use, your getting in effect £1.11. So pay 34p, get £1.11 back.
(As long as you do use less energy between 5-6pm)

The point of the scheme is to reduce the grid demand between 5-6pm, people that use little then, use little then. Them reducing usage isn't helping compared to high usage individuals.
Rewarding them for constantly using little would be daft in the context of a saving session, but maybe something that could be considered to trigger "good behaviour" over longer periods.
Problem is you then get into say people who work later shifts so always out at peak times, always having low usage, people with batteries/solar who can also always use low then.

Really its coming back to on demand pricing, which would get the majority making the best decisions repeatedly.
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I guess, if I was really bothered, I'd start doing the dishwasher, tumble etc at 5-6pm. Then when that's embedded in the system switch it to a different time.

If you make use of timers it's quite easy
 
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413x said:
I guess, if I was really bothered, I'd start doing the dishwasher, tumble etc at 5-6pm. Then when that's embedded in the system switch it to a different time.

If you make use of timers it's quite easy
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To be honest the equation seems out of wack
Far too much emphasis is on current days usage

Part of the difficulty in trying to game it is that the sessions can move around

5-6pm or some part of is most likely but not guaranteed.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Interesting. BBC running story that this is the first real saving session.
I know some of the previous were tests, they said there would be tests, but had assumed that at least the longest one was a real one.

Might be why the pricing is different, and this is the "real" pricing
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I really hope this fails.

If normal people do start buying into this idea (variable domestic pricing & rationing of their own lifestyle/energy use), watch how quickly this will turn from being a mitigation to the current problem of inconsistent generation, to the *solution*.

End result: less investment in generation and a permanent lifestyle downgrade for everyone.
 
personally i dont have a problem with *some* consideration to the demands on the system even if it means some inconveniences.

Put it this way............i would rather that than frakking and reopening coal mines.

either way investment in renewables is vital.
 
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