Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

[Curlyriff]

I wouldn’t buy a fossil car full stop - Get that nasty tail pipe pollution off our streets !

Plugging an EV in when you get home and allowing the system to work out the best time to charge it, based on your SOC and cost preferences, is really no hassle. You will wake up with it charged regardless of when the charge starts.

Brill can I borrow the £45k for the car and the £15k for the solar then thanks it all well and and good to suggest but it isn't practical at all.

Then add the £30 to charge for the 190miles of range average for an EV when not home charging on an EV tariff since I'm away from home 3 nights a week doing over 100 miles day average means I'm paying as much if not more to charge compared to a tank of desiel.

It's even more if need to charge when out at averaging 83p per kWh so a standard charge out and about at a stop is £60.59 for a 73kWh vehicle that does 190-240miles depending on how cold outside it is.

Then add in the emissions then, I can buy a second hand car that is basically carbon neutral as the 2nd hand buyer at around £15-£20k for a reasonably new and I'll mid spec vehicle compared to purchase a new vehicle that certainly cost more and has a larger carbon footprint in production then. If 40% of energy is from non-green energy then that's still a large % carbon footprint again. It would take a long time to break even on being carbon equal to the second hand ICE option at a fraction of a price.

You also need to consider the cost carbon wise for the manufacture and installation of solar, storage and such. That also isn't carbon natural. Yes it had a % to cover your general electric use + charging but if you look at those figures it is many years (the lifetime of the battery before replacement) to equal carbon neutrality.

If you can afford solar and a larger range vehicle circa £60k+ then yeah course it makes sense in terms of helping move towards a more carbon netural living. That isn't a luxury a large % of the population that is capable of doing though.

 

[bigmike20vt]

thankfully its not quite that bad.
I mean sure EVs are still not as cheap as ICE cars but i have been eying up a few sub 15K 2nd hand EVs with a real usable 120 mile range.

everyone is different but for us that would absolutely replace one of our cars..... until they come down however our larger vehicle may have to be a plug in hybrid...... not ideal but..............

 

[Curlyriff]

but you can guarantee that petrol and diesel cars are NOT coming from a green source.

besides, even IF electricity was 100% from none renewable sources, it would still be cleaner and more efficient to run an EV than an ICE car imo.

PS for 6 months of the year i could pretty much guarantee my electricity for my car was coming from a green source.... my roof!.

i dont do a huge amount of miles, so the 1600kwh power i exported in 2022 (just checked app) would cover a huge percent of my miles (and i will export far more in 2023 if we have the same weather as i am using probably 25% less electricity per day now than i was for 8 months of 2022.

I'd use around 11,000kWh just in charging the car for a year's worth of my normal travel. 73kWh x 3 charges a week x 52 weeks approx.

On my small 2 bed house that only had room for about 8 panels would offer around 2120kWh of power annually.

So I'd be short by 9000kWh just to charge my car annually. 57% is not renewable energy approx at min so about 5100kWh would be from non renewable possibly. Yes I know worse case but just approx. 1190kgCO2e then say.

My car is about 120g/km so that would be around 6000kgCO2e for the 50,000km a year travelled.

It's hard to get figures for production of an EV compared to the second ICE. But the battery alone for a tesla model 3 is about 4500kgCO2e then add the car, shipping etc so you are probably looking at around 3yrs to break even right now for buying a new EV compared to a second hand diesel whilst also being about £45k more expensive to do so in up front costs.

If you really wanted to be more carbon netural you could pay for carbon credits. 18,000kg of CO2 carbon credits is about £230 a year. So I could drive the ICE and be carbon positive from investing every year and it would take 195yrs with my carbon offsetting to break even to the coat of the EV and about +10,000kg CO2e annually.

Let's say you keep a car on average 7yrs that £45k you save from the EV and solar install and divide that up you have £6430 a year. That's 28x the 18k CO2e carbon offset achieved or an offset annually of 504,000kgCO2e then. So over the 7yrs thats 3,528,000 less the 42,000kgCO2e used from the ICE vehicle = 3,486,000kgCO2e over a 7yr period if your goal is to be carbon netrual/positive and at the same cost as an EV + solar. In my case I'd actually be hugely carbon netural for my house as well which is around 1200kWh annually for electric and 2400kWh gas.

Edit: should note this was more of an interest in just how EVs aren't just the answer but yes we should move more to renewable resources etc but nationally and globally are the bigger factors there. And yes carbon offsetting isn't ideal if you are in say the UK and the trees are in Afirca or whatever and also you need to actually be doing it in addition to the expected so if trees are being grown and planted as example then you are not really contributing additional, just supporting the already planned.

Anyways yeah so you'd likely need to pay more for really carbon offsetting and it actually doing. Just a little random thought. Reforestation locally on top of moving to more sustainable energy of course is the longer term answer.

 

[bayo000]

They should go the opposite, unit rates between 5pm-6pm are double or triple their usual amount.

Less open to abuse than a discounted scheme.

That's harsh. What if you've just had a baby and have to keep the house warm, clean things etc. Not only you can't participate but are also being punished for not being able to cut your usage.

 

[RobDogDog]

That's harsh. What if you've just had a baby and have to keep the house warm, clean things etc. Not only you can't participate but are also being punished for not being able to cut your usage.

We have two babies! The washing we go through is insane.

 

[200sols]

That's harsh. What if you've just had a baby and have to keep the house warm, clean things etc. Not only you can't participate but are also being punished for not being able to cut your usage.

He suggested it for one hour, clean things another time etc. Houses don't suddenly go ice cold in 1 hour either but I guess this highlights what some people have said about smart meters and surge pricing.

 

[bayo000]

He suggested it for one hour, clean things another time etc. Houses don't suddenly go ice cold in 1 hour either but I guess this highlights what some people have said about smart meters and surge pricing.

I appreciate that but there will be few people who just won't have choice but use the electricity for whatever reason. Maybe doing some building work and need to get the work done while they have the builders there.

Nothing wrong with current set up imo. Don't get me wrong I'm all for cutting the usage however as we already have lot of people struggling to pay I don't feel it would be fair to punish them.

Btw anyone else can't log in to their Octopus account on their phone?

 

[Kelt]

I appreciate that but there will be few people who just won't have choice but use the electricity for whatever reason. Maybe doing some building work and need to get the work done while they have the builders there.

Nothing wrong with current set up imo. Don't get me wrong I'm all for cutting the usage however as we already have lot of people struggling to pay I don't feel it would be fair to punish them.

Btw anyone else can't log in to their Octopus account on their phone?

All good here with Octopus.

 

[squerble]

Then add in the emissions then, I can buy a second hand car that is basically carbon neutral as the 2nd hand buyer at around £15-£20k for a reasonably new and I'll mid spec vehicle compared to purchase a new vehicle that certainly cost more and has a larger carbon footprint in production then. If 40% of energy is from non-green energy then that's still a large % carbon footprint again. It would take a long time to break even on being carbon equal to the second hand ICE option at a fraction of a price.

Complete guff. How is any ICE vehicle "basically carbon neutral"?! It spews out carbon every single time it's used, and that's not counting all the carbon spewed out to drill, ship, refine, transport, and then pump the fuel into the car in the first place.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Brill can I borrow the £45k for the car and the £15k for the solar then thanks it all well and and good to suggest but it isn't practical at all.

Then add the £30 to charge for the 190miles of range average for an EV when not home charging on an EV tariff since I'm away from home 3 nights a week doing over 100 miles day average means I'm paying as much if not more to charge compared to a tank of desiel.

It's even more if need to charge when out at averaging 83p per kWh so a standard charge out and about at a stop is £60.59 for a 73kWh vehicle that does 190-240miles depending on how cold outside it is.

Then add in the emissions then, I can buy a second hand car that is basically carbon neutral as the 2nd hand buyer at around £15-£20k for a reasonably new and I'll mid spec vehicle compared to purchase a new vehicle that certainly cost more and has a larger carbon footprint in production then. If 40% of energy is from non-green energy then that's still a large % carbon footprint again. It would take a long time to break even on being carbon equal to the second hand ICE option at a fraction of a price.

You also need to consider the cost carbon wise for the manufacture and installation of solar, storage and such. That also isn't carbon natural. Yes it had a % to cover your general electric use + charging but if you look at those figures it is many years (the lifetime of the battery before replacement) to equal carbon neutrality.

If you can afford solar and a larger range vehicle circa £60k+ then yeah course it makes sense in terms of helping move towards a more carbon netural living. That isn't a luxury a large % of the population that is capable of doing though.

Interesting take.
However, you cant say your green because your taking a second hand car and hence not responsible for any of the carbon.
That would be valid had you saved a car that would have been scrapped but not one where the normal ownership model is for people who buy new cars to generally pass them on and buy a new one. The selling on is part of the expected model since they have a fairly predictable value.

Say all the people who buy new cars stopped. What would you do then, either keep a decaying old one going, or buy a new one basically.

Your really not the target market yet. Your above average mileage, and no home charging. so two of the factors that lead to not yet you tick. One isn't too bad, but both mean not yet for you.

Sooner or later normal supply and demand will have to kick in to Ev prices, simply the amount moving onto the road will satiate that demand and prices will adjust.

I suspect your going to see lower depreciation of course since the cars are far more likely to have a longer lifespan than ICE.

What your also missing is the maintenance and depreciation, whats normally referred to as cost of life. IE the total cost of running X vs Y over a period, taking into account all the costs from purchase to running.
Right now the EV one is being heavily influenced by the electricity price. In comparison diesel is quite low in cost for fuel.
12 months ago no one was saying Evs were expensive to run, even with public charging because they weren't. I am sure over time thats going to fix itself to some extent, competition, and also obviously the elec to gas price tether, and the fact the high price of gas is pushing more and more sustainable energy development.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Btw anyone else can't log in to their Octopus account on their phone?

the last few days the brave browser has been unable to log in to my account. chrome works fine however so I assume it is something to do with privacy settings.

 

[SDK^]

Brill can I borrow the £45k for the car and the £15k for the solar then thanks it all well and and good to suggest but it isn't practical at all.

Then add the £30 to charge for the 190miles of range average for an EV when not home charging on an EV tariff since I'm away from home 3 nights a week doing over 100 miles day average means I'm paying as much if not more to charge compared to a tank of desiel.

It's even more if need to charge when out at averaging 83p per kWh so a standard charge out and about at a stop is £60.59 for a 73kWh vehicle that does 190-240miles depending on how cold outside it is.

Then add in the emissions then, I can buy a second hand car that is basically carbon neutral as the 2nd hand buyer at around £15-£20k for a reasonably new and I'll mid spec vehicle compared to purchase a new vehicle that certainly cost more and has a larger carbon footprint in production then. If 40% of energy is from non-green energy then that's still a large % carbon footprint again. It would take a long time to break even on being carbon equal to the second hand ICE option at a fraction of a price.

You also need to consider the cost carbon wise for the manufacture and installation of solar, storage and such. That also isn't carbon natural. Yes it had a % to cover your general electric use + charging but if you look at those figures it is many years (the lifetime of the battery before replacement) to equal carbon neutrality.

If you can afford solar and a larger range vehicle circa £60k+ then yeah course it makes sense in terms of helping move towards a more carbon netural living. That isn't a luxury a large % of the population that is capable of doing though.

Is the most anti-change post ever?!
I've heard all of that for the 5+ years from the anti-EV / anti-renewables brigade!

Getting out of bed isn't carbon neutral - shall we all go back to living in caves

EV's and renewables : They won't be 100% perfect on day one - a little improvement is still better !

...and you CANNOT guarantee that your electricity is coming from a green source!

I can - My electricity is coming from my home solar

 

[bigmike20vt]

Complete guff. How is any ICE vehicle "basically carbon neutral"?! It spews out carbon every single time it's used, and that's not counting all the carbon spewed out to drill, ship, refine, transport, and then pump the fuel into the car in the first place.

I think there is an argument for people to buy 2nd hand ICE cars .
most of the carbon debt has already been paid out in the construction of the car and crushing an otherwise sound vehicle may not make sense.

I see this as useful for someone who doesn't do loads of miles but when they do do them tend to be longish distance.

if you do super low miles (my uncle does maybe 2000 miles a year just to the shops and back for instance) a second hand leave with 70 mile range would be fine for around £6000.

but for people who do more miles then sure for now until the 2nd hand market is flush with EVs, I can grok that a 2nd hand ice is better than brand new ev

buying a brand new 100% ICE however? I don't think anyone should really be doing that tbh

if you can't afford a new EV with the range you need the buy a 2nd hand ICE or at least a hybrid of some description (even a new hybrid is not something I would consider tbh)

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

That's harsh. What if you've just had a baby and have to keep the house warm, clean things etc. Not only you can't participate but are also being punished for not being able to cut your usage.

The key point is that many need to get their heads around to start with is that the costs of generation are not equal. Its considerably (like many multiples of more) more expensive to generate that peak at the top of the generation list than the baseline and mid table stuff.
What people have been used to is paying a set price, time doesn't matter, so we all have to pay for the inflexibility.

The more we can get the total usage (assume its fixed) to be balanced in consumption the more of the expensive generation we don't use, and hence the total generated will cost less to generate.
Now big assumption, but as long as its got enough regulation in place to avoid excess profits being taken (although that applies to now as well) then by default peoples bills will have to be less.
What you get into then is a scenario where some people may see significant savings whilst others will see higher cost.
Generally those who can be most flexible will gain most, and those either unable or unwilling will either lose or not see any benefit.
Its not impossible to create schemes that protect the vulnerable, or allow fixed pricing but at a premium, so its predictably less beneficial.

In general you might have 4-6 hours of expensive energy, say 12 of normal and 6-8 of cheap.
As its flexible those who can will pile into the cheap, raising the demand and hence price, whilst those same people will do more to avoid the peaks, lowering the demand and flattening the curve.
I would imagine there would always be some peaks, early morning, evenings, but far more likely to be heavily supressed and equally the low usage periods highly likely to be raised significantly.

 

[Richie]

I'd change to an EV but they are far too expensive in comparison to the equivalent ICE car particularly in the used market at the moment.

The lowest price used EV without battery lease within 100 miles of me is a 8½-9 year old Renault Zoe for £8.5k.

Mental

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Snip

If you are not buying a new car, you can’t really compare it to a new EV, buy a used one. You can get used 2019 long range Model 3s for a very sensible price these days.

Granted, if you don’t have home or workplace charging, it’s a bit of a non starter doing 50k km/year at the moment.

However those doing 50k km a year are exactly the sorts of people we need to get into EVs as fast as possible not those who drive 10 miles a week. Burning all that fuel is the obvious major source of carbon and other emissions that harm everyone’s health.

PS, there is no way a diesel is 129g/km in the real world.

 

[HungryHippos]

I'd like a short range EV but the economics don't typically make sense still, I don't do enough miles (wfh and don't travel much) so my single digit 1000's of miles a year would not be efficient.

I hope that more 2nd hand EV's enter the market and lower pricing eventually because my ICE probably won't last forever, but it's fine for a bit longer.

 

[MadMossy]

I'd like a short range EV but the economics don't typically make sense still, I don't do enough miles (wfh and don't travel much) so my single digit 1000's of miles a year would not be efficient.

I hope that more 2nd hand EV's enter the market and lower pricing eventually because my ICE probably won't last forever, but it's fine for a bit longer.

It's only a matter of time, Tesla already reduced the cost of their vehicles by upwards of 20%, the biggest cost is the battery and they will continue to reduce over time.

A car lithium-ion battery was ~$450 per kwh in 2010. It is now ~$151 per kwh.

In another 10 years it could well be half of that, possibly even lower as the technology improves and changes. I do remember reading that once batteries drop below $100 per kwh they will be significantly cheaper than an ICE vehicle.

 

[413x]

I just cut down on making coffee during the periods, making a bomb at the moment, 69p and counting!

I mean a KW is a lot. Sounds like an amazing saving 4gbp/kwh. But to actually save a kwh based on an average? That's a lot. Unless you run tumble at 5-6pm every day or two it's going to be rare to make much for most I guess

 

[413x]

I'd like a short range EV but the economics don't typically make sense still, I don't do enough miles (wfh and don't travel much) so my single digit 1000's of miles a year would not be efficient.

I hope that more 2nd hand EV's enter the market and lower pricing eventually because my ICE probably won't last forever, but it's fine for a bit longer.

Exactly the same with wfh. But even worse to justify for me.

Very few short journeys but a few long journeys (family, camping etc).

With my use case you get all the disadvantages.
Depreciation, having to charge along the route, no regular commute that these excel at.


It will come, but its going to be a long time before long range batteries are in cheap second hand cars. I don't even think my next car will be an EV. 2 years ago I very much thought my next car would be EV.