Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

Next time you go on a road trip, take note of how much you stop for rest breaks, you'll be surprised at how much time you spend, enough time to charge most EVs to 80%+ extending their range significantly.

The only time that would become an issue is if your out in the middle of nowhere.
 
Complete guff. How is any ICE vehicle "basically carbon neutral"?! It spews out carbon every single time it's used, and that's not counting all the carbon spewed out to drill, ship, refine, transport, and then pump the fuel into the car in the first place.
Buying something second hand measn I am not carbon positive for the initial purchase. Maybe you missunderstood. The person purchasing the vehicle is carbon positive. However if I brought a new EV I would be carbon positive with the second hand car being netrual for me in that purchase aspect.
 
Next time you go on a road trip, take note of how much you stop for rest breaks, you'll be surprised at how much time you spend, enough time to charge most EVs to 80%+ extending their range significantly.

The only time that would become an issue is if your out in the middle of nowhere.
If there's no queue, and if the chargers not broken...
Our infrastructure isn't there yet for mass ev take up imo.
 
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Exactly the same with wfh. But even worse to justify for me.

Very few short journeys but a few long journeys (family, camping etc).

With my use case you get all the disadvantages.
Depreciation, having to charge along the route, no regular commute that these excel at.


It will come, but its going to be a long time before long range batteries are in cheap second hand cars. I don't even think my next car will be an EV. Which is what I thought 2 years ago.
i wonder if a 2nd hand hybrid could be a good fit for you? ie


i wont lie, this one has tempted me to replace our nissan QQ and its been on there for a while so maybe the seller would take an offer....... 20 mile battery range is woeful... but even so the reality is for me i would probably still do 60% of my miles on full battery.

i wouldnt but a new hybrid............. but the new 2023 version of the outlander is gonna have 60-80mile full EV range iirc....... once these hit the 2nd hand market 4 years old, i will be really tempted.
 
I'd like a short range EV but the economics don't typically make sense still, I don't do enough miles (wfh and don't travel much) so my single digit 1000's of miles a year would not be efficient.

I hope that more 2nd hand EV's enter the market and lower pricing eventually because my ICE probably won't last forever, but it's fine for a bit longer.

Economics will bring your cheaper EV eventually. Part will come down to those who want to change like you but it doesnt make sense, in effect there will be a ranking of how much people want to change, as everyone will be different the point where a cost effective EV is there for you will vary, but it will get there.
What will be different for sure is that bangernomics will not exist for Evs. The minimum pay to play cost will be higher.

Exactly the same with wfh. But even worse to justify for me.

Very few short journeys but a few long journeys (family, camping etc).

With my use case you get all the disadvantages.
Depreciation, having to charge along the route, no regular commute that these excel at.


It will come, but its going to be a long time before long range batteries are in cheap second hand cars. I don't even think my next car will be an EV. 2 years ago I very much thought my next car would be EV.

If its the odd journey what does it matter. Its not really that different in cost right now for the "fuel" aspect, and if its a couple of journeys a year its pretty irrelevant.

Sooner or later the carrot won't be enough and the stick will come. The stick will likely be a significant increase in costs to running an ICE, via ever increasing fuel price loading.
 
Some of this does boil down in part to what the earlier poster said but you can look at it more pragmatically..

Like my car was made when the model S wasn't even launched (it's a 2009).. I bought it in 2012.

I've thought over and over about changing it but it works so why bother and for the last couple of years I've been fairly convinced keeping it is actually the most environmentally friendly thing I can do.

It's got 213k miles on it so once it's not with me it ain't going anywhere except the scrappers... but it works, it does all the things I need so I keep deciding to keep it until it finally dies with a hope of going electric then
 
so energy saving commitments
DFS results are out now 327MW bought priced again between £2799/MWh and £6500/MWh .... some distribution companies were payed £6.50/kwh
so saving would be 1% of total https://www.mygridgb.co.uk/last-28-days/

Smart meters aint that fast ;)


.. no reason why with smart meter DCC updates of 30min, or <5mins for engaged customers, that octopus shouldn't be able to give indication of actual saving results fast
 
so energy saving commitments
DFS results are out now 327MW bought priced again between £2799/MWh and £6500/MWh .... some distribution companies were payed £6.50/kwh
so saving would be 1% of total https://www.mygridgb.co.uk/last-28-days/




.. no reason why with smart meter DCC updates of 30min, or <5mins for engaged customers, that octopus shouldn't be able to give indication of actual saving results fast

Who cares, no one needs an indication. The grid knew what was going on in real time.
Octopus need to churn some serious data and wait for the laggard meters to get results in.
They allow I think 3 days before they consider the meter results aren't going to come and hence they apply a standard amount to that person.

Patience grasshopper.
 
Interesting take.
However, you cant say your green because your taking a second hand car and hence not responsible for any of the carbon.
That would be valid had you saved a car that would have been scrapped but not one where the normal ownership model is for people who buy new cars to generally pass them on and buy a new one. The selling on is part of the expected model since they have a fairly predictable value.

Say all the people who buy new cars stopped. What would you do then, either keep a decaying old one going, or buy a new one basically.

Your really not the target market yet. Your above average mileage, and no home charging. so two of the factors that lead to not yet you tick. One isn't too bad, but both mean not yet for you.

Sooner or later normal supply and demand will have to kick in to Ev prices, simply the amount moving onto the road will satiate that demand and prices will adjust.

I suspect your going to see lower depreciation of course since the cars are far more likely to have a longer lifespan than ICE.

What your also missing is the maintenance and depreciation, whats normally referred to as cost of life. IE the total cost of running X vs Y over a period, taking into account all the costs from purchase to running.
Right now the EV one is being heavily influenced by the electricity price. In comparison diesel is quite low in cost for fuel.
12 months ago no one was saying Evs were expensive to run, even with public charging because they weren't. I am sure over time thats going to fix itself to some extent, competition, and also obviously the elec to gas price tether, and the fact the high price of gas is pushing more and more sustainable energy development.
Oh 100% it will be and I would have happily moved to the EV if it was viable. It is just for the majority very far from viable at the moment. And yes indeed it technically isn't 100% carbon free to purcahse second hand, however if nobody did and everyone just moved to EV which is kinda how this stated then the ICE cars would indeed be going to decay and scrapped. So there is still a market where those whom can't afford the total package of home charging and EV + possibly suplimentary carbon offsetting would still be less carbon positive purchasing a cheaper ICE vehicle second hand.

However buying new ICE I feel for the most part (other than the relatively large outlay for said EV) is short sighted. So there is really two markets, second hand = ICE generally and new = EV. The problem being even at the cheap end a new ICE can be had for £14k compared to £27k for EV. So just to move into the market at the lowest end you are £13k over where they need to be. This also seems on average similar for anything low to mid range EV vs ICE. It is also a vehicle that offers 150-200miles range depending on weather conditions.

If you are buying second hand ICE then generally what depreciation though? They already have and the rate has slowed significantly even compared to the general lower rate of depreciation of EV? And what about maintenance? They are similar in terms of brakes, tires and such, in fact there is an argument that the higher wear of tires and pads could be possible with EV due to the extra weight so an increased cost, however filters and fluids generally reduce in comparison and thus why a similar cost in maintenance is there.

I am not sure why you think longer lifespan either. My previous car was a 2007 vehicle that lasted till 2022 so 15yrs. In that time I would expect an EV to have the battery replaced also at many thousands currently. There is so much to compare it would take pages but my point was more that it is not as black and white in terms of EV is just instantly better like so many suggest.
 
Is the most anti-change post ever?!
I've heard all of that for the 5+ years from the anti-EV / anti-renewables brigade!

Getting out of bed isn't carbon neutral - shall we all go back to living in caves :p

EV's and renewables : They won't be 100% perfect on day one - a little improvement is still better !



I can - My electricity is coming from my home solar :)
I want EV to be the direction though, I have pushed answers to other things in this very thread that on a larger scale nationally can be done and such but they are only a little improvement to those whom can afford a huge outlay, ignoring that is completely ignoring that there is a huge market whom currently can't just switch to EV cause it isn't viable.
 
EVs rarely need new brake pads or disks, the biggest issue my mate has with his are them rusting up due to no use..... EVs tend to brake using regen ........ the tyre wear is a theoretical good point but not sure in reality it is noticable

there are far fewer moving parts and hoses etc to wear out or rot in an EV...... sure ICE cars can last 20 years+ but i dare say if you were to get lets say a gen 1 zoe from 2012 with 100k on the clock and a 2012 clio petrol with 100k on the clock and to compare life time servicing and maintanence costs, i would wager the zoe would win easily.
 
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Economics will bring your cheaper EV eventually. Part will come down to those who want to change like you but it doesnt make sense, in effect there will be a ranking of how much people want to change, as everyone will be different the point where a cost effective EV is there for you will vary, but it will get there.
What will be different for sure is that bangernomics will not exist for Evs. The minimum pay to play cost will be higher.



If its the odd journey what does it matter. Its not really that different in cost right now for the "fuel" aspect, and if its a couple of journeys a year its pretty irrelevant.

Sooner or later the carrot won't be enough and the stick will come. The stick will likely be a significant increase in costs to running an ICE, via ever increasing fuel price loading.

Its more than a couple of journeys a year. Its more like once a month. Into the hills for mountain biking or to beach in west Wales. Or Central Wales.

Its enough to be annoying, but not enough to justify.

If you put it into perspective the current car cost 3k. Because its used to adhoc the cost per trip its low. If it was 10k? Its just not worth it. And this is probably the cheapest 2nd hand type of EV? But old EV. (talking old leafs). I could be wrong but not checked in a while.


I very much would love an EV. But unfortunately the economics just don't stack up. If I needed to commute daily. I'd have one now.

The stick has to get a lot lot bigger for me to switch. 2nd hand ICE are just too cheap when outlay is (for me) the biggest factor. Just don't have 10k+ to drop on a car thats going to annoy me.
 
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thankfully its not quite that bad.
I mean sure EVs are still not as cheap as ICE cars but i have been eying up a few sub 15K 2nd hand EVs with a real usable 120 mile range.

everyone is different but for us that would absolutely replace one of our cars..... until they come down however our larger vehicle may have to be a plug in hybrid...... not ideal but..............
Indeed but looking at it like this the cheapest new ICE cars are around £14k, the cheapest new EV cars with very limited range (around 150-200miles) is £27k. Huge difference. For me 120 miles only just about gets my trip from home to work and back as example so I would not risk that.

Second hand the EV drops to £15k but the ICE drops to £8k so it all depends where that budget is. Then with EV if you are going second hand currently the battery replacement and depending on mileage can be huge consideration. It will get there but the consumer purchase ability is very much limited.
 
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