Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

[humbug]

generally in the UK our total tax hit is pretty low compared to almost all other comparable nations. We ideally need to pay a lot more tax and for that to be spent wisely..

On a basic income its 13.8% NI and 20% Income Tax.

Another 20% from your already taxed income when you buy anything with VAT, which includes clothing, an unknown amount of tax on fuel for your car (Tax on that is very high, i think about 70% of it is not unrealistic) your gas and electricity has more than one tax on it, some foods have tax.

I don't think i would be wrong in suggesting that as you go through your daily life the reality of tax you're actually paying is 40 to 50 pence in every pound you spend, sure it could be higher, 50%, 60%, 70%? how much of every pound you earn do you want to keep and how much of it do you want to go to the government? Do you want to keep most of it or do you want the government to have more of what you worked for than you have? Where should it end?

Every time they want more money your buying power is reduced, you become poorer.

 

[One More Solo]

Secondly, there are other options for home energy, other than signing up to an energy supplier.

Everyone needs to plan, understand and be in control of their own situations and not blame the system/other people when disruption happens.

People in this country are eating in a really unhealthy way, do you really think putting people off fruit and veg with vat is sensible? Do you seriously believe people will buy a carrot as an alternative to a smoothie? No of course not, they'll just get some cheaper junk food.

Smoothies are an easy accessable way for the public to get some portions of fruit and veg.

Two of the daftest opinions I’ve read in a while, and in the same thread. Well done chaps.

 

[mid_gen]

On a basic income its 13.8% NI and 20% Income Tax.

Another 20% from your already taxed income when you buy anything with VAT, which includes clothing, an unknown amount of tax on fuel for your car (Tax on that is very high, i think about 70% of it is not unrealistic) your gas and electricity has more than one tax on it, some foods have tax.

I don't think i would be wrong in suggesting that as you go through your daily life the reality of tax you're actually paying is 40 to 50 pence in every pound you spend, sure it could be higher, 50%, 60%, 70%? how much of every pound you earn do you want to keep and how much of it do you want to go to the government, do you want to keep most of it or do you want the government to have more of what you worked for than you have? Where should it end?

I paid a lot more tax in Germany, it was wonderful, public services all worked, public transport was cheap, education, benefits were amazing if you needed them. Health service worked great. I could just walk to my GP and see him 10 minutes later.....wild!

Moving back to the UK a couple years it has been genuinely shocking just how run down and on the decline this country is. Thatcherism started it, austerity doubled down. Our society has been dismantled.

 

[humbug]

I paid a lot more tax in Germany, it was wonderful, public services all worked, public transport was cheap, education, benefits were amazing if you needed them. Health service worked great. I could just walk to my GP and see him 10 minutes later.....wild!

Moving back to the UK a couple years it has been genuinely shocking just how run down and on the decline this country is. Thatcherism started it, austerity doubled down. Our society has been dismantled.

Before stealth taxes here we pay 34% (34 pence out of every pound) you earn goes to government, The German income tax rate starts at 14% and goes to 42% for high earners, hight earners in the UK pay 58%.

Germany does have very good infrastructure but its due to competence and efficiency, not high taxes.

Where is all our money going?

 

[mid_gen]

Before stealth taxes here we pay 34% (34 pence out of every pound) you earn goes to government, The German income Tax rate starts at 14% and goes to 42% for high earners, hight earners in the UK pay 58%.

Germany does have very good infrastructure but its due to competence and efficiency, not high taxes.

You've had German paycheques I assume, and aren't just talking out of your backside? Take-home net pay is a significant chunk lower than the UK.

Even worse if you're a bible-thumper and cough up your church tax (9% of your gross income).

Can't argue with the competence part.....but apparently our voters are all cretins. It's not like it was a big surprise that Boris turned out to be an incompetent blithering idiot.

 

[One More Solo]

Before stealth taxes here we pay 34% (34 pence out of every pound) you earn goes to government, The German income tax rate starts at 14% and goes to 42% for high earners, hight earners in the UK pay 58%.

Germany does have very good infrastructure but its due to competence and efficiency, not high taxes.

Where is all our money going?

Why are you just looking at income tax?

 

[humbug]

You've had German paycheques I assume, and aren't just talking out of your backside? Take-home net pay is a significant chunk lower than the UK.

Even worse if you're a bible-thumper and cough up your church tax (9% of your gross income).

Don't be a bible-thumper.

The German Tax system. https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/taxation-germany/german-tax-system

 

[humbug]

So it begins

I use £2 per day on 15p per kWh

On 1'st April that will go to £4 per day, in October its rumoured to go to 40p per kWh, so £5.30 per day.

1'st April: £124 per Calender month, £1488 per year.
1'st October: £164 per Calender month, £1790 per year.

My mother is on a basic state pension, £7,125 per year.
£4,560 for rent and council tax - £7125 = £2,869 < out of that she will have to pay energy costs, Fuel for her car and food. /!

 

[muon]

I use £2 per day on 15p per kWh

On 1'st April that will go to £4 per day, in October its rumoured to go to 40p per kWh, so £5.30 per day.

1'st April: £124 per Calender month, £1488 per year.
1'st October: £164 per Calender month, £1790 per year.

My mother is on a basic state pension, £7,125 per year.
£4,560 for rent and council tax - £7125 = £2,869 < out of that she will have to pay energy costs, Fuel for her car and food. /!

Erm, she would be getting other benefits if her income is only £7125 per year.

Pension credit would top it up to £9200.

https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit/eligibility

Pensioners on low incomes get council tax reduced by up to 100%.

Then there would be housing benefit if income was that low and you still paid rent.

Now not saying that the energy price increases won't be tough. But you have provided a completely misleading picture.

edit:

I just did a quick check below

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/

Someone on a basic state pension would have rent and council tax paid for, at the levels you mention. They would also get a winter fuel payment.

 

[Delvis]

Erm, she would be getting other benefits if her income is only £7125 per year.

Pension credit would top it up to £9200.

https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit/eligibility

Pensioners on low incomes get council tax reduced by up to 100%.

Then there would be housing benefit if income was that low and you still paid rent.

Now not saying that the energy price increases won't be tough. But you have provided a completely misleading picture.

edit:

I just did a quick check below

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/

Someone on a basic state pension would have rent and council tax paid for, at the levels you mention. They would also get a winter fuel payment.

Hopefully, if anything the stuff you've outlined might be something someone has missed and it helps them

It's still mental, especially as 'nothing has changed', it's not like the main gas line has blown up under the sea or all the oil places have gone bust? Or have they? What doi know.

Basically...."Hey everyone's going to be working from home more, let's increase energy costs"

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Food is food, stop being an apologist for the arbitrary classifications of some foods as essential and others not.

People in this country are eating in a really unhealthy way, do you really think putting people off fruit and veg with vat is sensible? Do you seriously believe people will buy a carrot as an alternative to a smoothie? No of course not, they'll just get some cheaper junk food.

Smoothies are an easy accessable way for the public to get some portions of fruit and veg.

Smoothies that you buy in the supermarket are the literal epiphany of an expensive middle class luxury food and because of the way people actually consume them they bump into the junk food category.

People chug them because they are 'healthy' but in reality they don't fill you up, rot your teeth and are filled with calories as most people don't stick to the 150ml portion size or consider it in their daily intake. When you blend fruit you release the sugar so the body has to expend zero effort in breaking it down and you get it all in one hit. You are way better off just eating the fruit, it cheaper, more filling and you are more likely to have the proper portion size and fruit VAT free too.

For reference:
Coca Cola 10.6g/100ml sugar - 42 cal/100ml,
Innocent apple, passionfruit and mango 11g/100ml sugar - 51cal/100ml

So while you get the vitamins, and a touch of fibre that hasn't been obliterated by the blender, they are loaded with free sugar which is really quite bad.

 

[muon]

Hopefully, if anything the stuff you've outlined might be something someone has missed and it helps them

It's still mental, especially as 'nothing has changed', it's not like the main gas line has blown up under the sea or all the oil places have gone bust? Or have they? What doi know.

Basically...."Hey everyone's going to be working from home more, let's increase energy costs"

Problem is humbug has a habit of presenting things in a manipulative way. I mean just above he complains about paying too much in taxes and asking where it all goes. Helping his mother in a significant way is part of the answer.

Before stealth taxes here we pay 34% (34 pence out of every pound) you earn goes to government, The German income tax rate starts at 14% and goes to 42% for high earners, hight earners in the UK pay 58%.

Germany does have very good infrastructure but its due to competence and efficiency, not high taxes.

Where is all our money going?

Why are you asking us. Go check the government budget published every year. It doesn't disappear into a vacuum.

 

[chrcoluk]

Before stealth taxes here we pay 34% (34 pence out of every pound) you earn goes to government, The German income tax rate starts at 14% and goes to 42% for high earners, hight earners in the UK pay 58%.

Germany does have very good infrastructure but its due to competence and efficiency, not high taxes.

Where is all our money going?

25 billion to private landlords.

From my analysis of the UK tax system, our income based tax is historically low, and we have gradually been making it up via consumption taxes, so our tax system is light for the rich and heavy for the poor.

We do spend money badly, many examples of it, but e.g. if we are to invest in energy the clear obvious things to do are to build nuclear power plants and to get solar panels on every home. I have other examples but sticking to that one here given its the energy thread. Instead we will keep handing it over to companies instead who will charge consumers for the energy as our government believes in a small state and free enterprise to provide what we need.

 

[chrcoluk]

You've had German paycheques I assume, and aren't just talking out of your backside? Take-home net pay is a significant chunk lower than the UK.

Even worse if you're a bible-thumper and cough up your church tax (9% of your gross income).

Can't argue with the competence part.....but apparently our voters are all cretins. It's not like it was a big surprise that Boris turned out to be an incompetent blithering idiot.

Most UK voters I would say are out for themselves, at least the ones that vote, every election the press print budget guides, as to how people will be better or worse off depending on who they vote for, thatcher destroyed community spirit, and people accept short termism if it means they can afford an extra holiday in the summer. As long as this happens our public services will remain run down, councils under funded, poor social security, and poor housing.

 

[Energize]

You may think you sound edgy and maverick but you're simply admitting to criminal activity.

Whoosh. Someone asked how you evade tax with crypto, I wasn't talking about my activity.

Smoothies that you buy in the supermarket are the literal epiphany of an expensive middle class luxury food and because of the way people actually consume them they bump into the junk food category.

People chug them because they are 'healthy' but in reality they don't fill you up, rot your teeth and are filled with calories as most people don't stick to the 150ml portion size or consider it in their daily intake. When you blend fruit you release the sugar so the body has to expend zero effort in breaking it down and you get it all in one hit. You are way better off just eating the fruit, it cheaper, more filling and you are more likely to have the proper portion size and fruit VAT free too.

For reference:
Coca Cola 10.6g/100ml sugar - 42 cal/100ml,
Innocent apple, passionfruit and mango 11g/100ml sugar - 51cal/100ml

So while you get the vitamins, and a touch of fibre that hasn't been obliterated by the blender, they are loaded with free sugar which is really quite bad.

I don't think asda/tesco etc are "middle class".

But you are missing the point here, people that wouldn't normally eat fruit buy these fruit based products which is better than eating junk food because of the vitamin content. Slapping a staggering rate of VAT on them just pushes people to cheap untaxed junk food like cakes.

It's not just smoothies anyway, that was just one example of nutritious food that is taxed to oblivion, in reality there are a whole swathe of good food products taxed. And it's well established that VAT is a regressive tax that hits the poor the hardest, it's unethical.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I don't think asda/tesco etc are "middle class".

Of course middle class people shop at Asda and Tesco, where else do you think they shop. There are posts further back in this thread about the waves of land rovers parked outside your local Lidl let alone Tesco. Tesco in particular has huge ranges dedicated to its high revenue earning customers.

But you are missing the point here, people that wouldn't normally eat fruit buy these fruit based products which is better than eating junk food because of the vitamin content. Slapping a staggering rate of VAT on them just pushes people to cheap untaxed junk food like cakes.

It's not just smoothies anyway, that was just one example of nutritious food that is taxed to oblivion, in reality there are a whole swathe of good food products taxed. And it's well established that VAT is a regressive tax that hits the poor the hardest, it's unethical.

You picked an utterly terrible example to make your point which is why it was called out. It still doesn’t change that smoothies are not ‘essential’ or even ‘nutritious’, no credible dietician recommends you drink them in any quantity regularly and most recommend you avoid them due to the free sugar content. While Coke gets the blame, there are cohorts of children that grew up on them that have serious oral health issues now. While it’s possible to consume them as part of a balanced diet, it’s also possible to consume Coke, Haribo, potato crisps on the same basis too and no one argues that they should be 0% VAT. We should absolutely be discouraging people from drinking them in any significant quantity and they certainly shouldn’t be your primary source of veg and fruit.

Arguing that smoothies have the wrong tax treatment is not far off the Tim Martin school of VAT, where do you draw the line? If you want to avoid the VAT, buy the ingredients and make it yourself, problem solved, you can control the sugar content and it’s probably cheaper too.

What other examples do you have where ‘nutritious’ food has an inappropriate tax applied to it?

 

[krooton]

Lol @ nutritious smoothies!

As for the topic at hand, I've done my maths and come May (when my fixed plan ends) my energy costs are literally doubling!

 

[Greebo]

generally in the UK our total tax hit is pretty low compared to almost all other comparable nations. We ideally need to pay a lot more tax and for that to be spent wisely..

This. Compared with other wealthy european countries we are a country of low tax. I often point this out to people who share the meme about how little UK pensioners get compared with German pensioners and point out that if we all pay up to 10% more tax per year like the Germans then we too could have a much more generous pension but nobody wants to pay more tax now surprisingly.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

This. France is even more again.

 

[theone8181]

Huh I always had smoothies down as being pretty healthy.