Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

[Doobedoo]

Near enough everyone pays tax, so we're all victims?

Well yes. Unless you have very well paid accountants and off shore bank accounts.

 

[413x]

My water bill (dwr cymru) is on my credit score, but elec/gas (Scottish Power) isn't

 

[Doobedoo]

But according to @danlightbulb non-payment is a victimless.

He also said he doesn’t advocate permanent non payment it’s merely a form of protest. Your familiar with Gandhi.

 

[the shadow]

which suppliers and which credit score service?

I just looked at mine (clearscore) and nothing is there from Eon Next or EDF.

Not all companys are snitches

 

[Doobedoo]

lol dp

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Its been compared to the poll tax revolt in the early 90's. I don't condone disruptive protesting, but this type of protest (non payment en-masse) i think would be very effective and is victimless.


See my previous comment on keeping the economy going. If our entire income is being spent on energy and fuel, there is no discretionary spending left and small and medium businesses will go under with huge national consequences. Is it better to refuse to pay an international energy firm to keep your local economy going - I think it is.

Oooof couldn't disagree more.

The poll tax riots ended up with people with criminal convictions, and they all had to pay eventually. Plus all the associated costs of court etc

There is no victimless crime. The victims in this crime are the people who own the shares in the companies that will lose, and/or the man on the street who may end up having to pay more for this utilities as he isn't thieving scum.
Anyone who has a UK based pension will almost certainly have some of their investment in the large UK based energy companies.

Just like shoplifting, the shops and / or the other customers foot the bill ultimately. (Often shops short term but general population long term.)

What I worry about this most is its got the potential to have a massive impact on the market.
Eg the default position changing to prepayment if a good proportion of the population are avoiding paying, or suppliers asking for a deposit in advance, with only those with a high credit rating being allowed a "normal" meter.

Thinking the industry and government are going to just stand by and watch this is plain madness.

 

[Surveyor]

He also said he doesn’t advocate permanent non payment it’s merely a form of protest.

Long enough to "put some serious scare on" is long enough to put companies out of business.

 

[Zenduri]

He also said he doesn’t advocate permanent non payment it’s merely a form of protest. Your familiar with Gandhi.

You must be high if you are comparing a forum member in GD to Ghandi

 

[danlightbulb]

Oooof couldn't disagree more.

The poll tax riots ended up with people with criminal convictions, and they all had to pay eventually. Plus all the associated costs of court etc

There is no victimless crime. The victims in this crime are the people who own the shares in the companies that will lose, and/or the man on the street who may end up having to pay more for this utilities as he isn't thieving scum.
Anyone who has a UK based pension will almost certainly have some of their investment in the large UK based energy companies.

Just like shoplifting, the shops and / or the other customers foot the bill ultimately. (Often shops short term but general population long term.)

What I worry about this most is its got the potential to have a massive impact on the market.
Eg the default position changing to prepayment if a good proportion of the population are avoiding paying, or suppliers asking for a deposit in advance, with only those with a high credit rating being allowed a "normal" meter.

Thinking the industry and government are going to just stand by and watch this is plain madness.

I don't disagree with what you've said, but I believe something has to happen because these prices are just unsustainable and the problem is fundamentally not within the control of the people paying the bills so they shouldn't be the ones taking on the risk.

If there is another solution instead of mass protest Im interested in what it is.

 

[Doobedoo]

You must be high if you are comparing a forum member in GD to Ghandi

The ability of a single person or a minority of persons to enable huge, monumental feats of change. A man and his sandals forced an empire to relinquish its control of a sovereign nation though protest, which started off as something small and insignificant yet grew into something hugely significant.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

None of the big suppliers could stomach the financial cost to take on all of bulb's customers, not even if they were broken up and split into smaller pieces which is why it went into special admin run by the Gov and to all those people who harp on about nationalising energy suppliers... Bulb cost was originally expected to be £1.5bill and now £3bill +..... dont worry though...nationalised energy companies are what will save us....

The bit that really then makes me laugh is the same people harping on about nationalising energy are now whining about increased standing charge..... which has been raised to cover the cost of running a nationalised energy company

I suspect (like me) most of the people talking of nationalising energy are mainly focussed on the profit making side the extraction and generation as opposed to the retail element.
We all know that the extraction is where the money is made since the retail side (even for vertically integrated businesses) is basically charged market rate for their energy they then sell on.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Well why wouldn’t you be upset with having to bail out yet another private companies failures. Do shareholders, management and dividend recipients ever have to chip in? No they ride off into the sunset counting their loot, plotting where they will end up next. My money is as an mp or on the board of ofgem.

Shareholders and dividend recipients (who are normally the same shareholders) lose the value of their investment.
The energy market is semi unique in that the value of the product can be really significant in relation to the value of the company.
Others exist that are similar, but its not generally this kind of balance.

 

[Zenduri]

I suspect (like me) most of the people talking of nationalising energy are mainly focussed on the profit making side the extraction and generation as opposed to the retail element.
We all know that the extraction is where the money is made since the retail side (even for vertically integrated businesses) is basically charged market rate for their energy they then sell on.

While you and I know the money is on the extraction and generation side and thats where the real problem is, it only takes 5 minutes to realise most people who post in here consider the retail companies the issue not the extraction and generation ones and they then harp on about nationalising the retail element without understanding how the market works or where the faults in the market are.

 

[413x]

While you and I know the money is on the extraction and generation side and thats where the real problem is, it only takes 5 minutes to realise most people who post in here consider the retail companies the issue not the extraction and generation ones and they then harp on about nationalising the retail element without understanding how the market works or where the faults in the market are.

Just a few minutes on any general audience comments section just shows how little people know about how global finance works.

People even seem to be detached from the fact the governments money is our money.

 

[danlightbulb]

While you and I know the money is on the extraction and generation side and thats where the real problem is, it only takes 5 minutes to realise most people who post in here consider the retail companies the issue not the extraction and generation ones and they then harp on about nationalising the retail element without understanding how the market works or where the faults in the market are.

I think people probably assume they are the same thing yeah.

But this is the fault of Ofgem and the Government who make the retailers the front line and aren't transparent about the rest of the system. Why? Because if you expose the rest of the system it becomes clear how much risk was actually embedded in it. The reliance on imports, the links to global supply factors, global supply prices, exporting our own energy, failure to invest in nuclear etc.

It is a national disgrace.

We should have been supplying ourselves first, with our own resources be that fossil fuels, nuclear or renewables. And we should not be participating in wholesale energy markets only with our excess energy.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I don't disagree with what you've said, but I believe something has to happen because these prices are just unsustainable and the problem is fundamentally not within the control of the people paying the bills so they shouldn't be the ones taking on the risk.

If there is another solution instead of mass protest Im interested in what it is.

None of the things you spend your money on is fundamentally under your price control, you don't control the price of milk, or eggs, or lettuce, or your mortgage, or your car, or your sofa, or your sandals
Just like you don't control the cost of the energy you use.

What you can do is control the amount of all those things you use, and use substitutes if available.

Mass protest has its place. There has to be political will to make it happen. The best approach IS political, every single one of those people potentially protesting who lives in a Tory seat should be writing to their MP saying I will not vote for you at the next election unless you publicly come out NOW and push your own party to make change.
That was what in effect led to the poll tax being reversed, political will in the Tory party.

FWIW I thought the poll tax was an improvement, especially now when the costs and ability to pay bear even less relation to the size of the property someone lives in.

 

[chrcoluk]

I think people probably assume they are the same thing yeah.

But this is the fault of Ofgem and the Government who make the retailers the front line and aren't transparent about the rest of the system. Why? Because if you expose the rest of the system it becomes clear how much risk was actually embedded in it. The reliance on imports, the links to global supply factors, global supply prices, exporting our own energy, failure to invest in nuclear etc.

It is a national disgrace.

We should have been supplying ourselves first, with our own resources be that fossil fuels, nuclear or renewables. And we should not be participating in wholesale energy markets only with our excess energy.

You beat me to it. The real side of energy has effectively been hidden away. Like a lot of stuff everything is dumbed down or misled to the typical person.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I think people probably assume they are the same thing yeah.

But this is the fault of Ofgem and the Government who make the retailers the front line and aren't transparent about the rest of the system. Why? Because if you expose the rest of the system it becomes clear how much risk was actually embedded in it. The reliance on imports, the links to global supply factors, global supply prices, exporting our own energy, failure to invest in nuclear etc.

It is a national disgrace.

We should have been supplying ourselves first, with our own resources be that fossil fuels, nuclear or renewables. And we should not be participating in wholesale energy markets only with our excess energy.

Which requires nationalisation basically.
Im all for it, even being a Tory party member.
Some things to me just make no sense to be privatised, energy and housing* being the main two.
Not all housing, but housing for those who will never be able to reasonably stand a chance of buying themselves.

Nationalised energy and housing would actually be a globally competitive advantage!

 

[Zenduri]

I think people probably assume they are the same thing yeah.

But this is the fault of Ofgem and the Government who make the retailers the front line and aren't transparent about the rest of the system. Why? Because if you expose the rest of the system it becomes clear how much risk was actually embedded in it. The reliance on imports, the links to global supply factors, global supply prices, exporting our own energy, failure to invest in nuclear etc.

It is a national disgrace.

We should have been supplying ourselves first, with our own resources be that fossil fuels, nuclear or renewables. And we should not be participating in wholesale energy markets only with our excess energy.

The problem is people dont care when it's cheap and/or doesnt effect them but when something happens or the price goes up then people suddenly care and blame everyone for not taking actions sooner when in reality the people should have been pressing for actions sooner.

Point in case for an example of this is this snippet from Martin Lewis (timestamped video) when talking about green energy and peoples priorities

 

[danlightbulb]

even being a Tory party member.

Which candidate you voting for if you're willing to say?